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Poachers and Penalties: Are Cases Really a Deterrent?

woodsdog2 said:
Why do they allow baiting in some areas and not others? Is there an overpopulation of deer in those areas?
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Here in our area of Oh. they claim that deer touching ea. other over a bait pile will pass diseases such as CWD, which we have in adjacent counties. Can't say about Mich. though. Not sure it matters if they are eating from a 2 gallon pile or a hopper wagon full ?
 
It depends IMO, I’ve always said poaching is egregious, and there are things that are worse than jail, such as being banned from hunting, but as we all know banning things doesn’t stop the criminals that truly don’t care about outcome. But for the most part laws just keep honest people honest. I think for the system to work it’s best there needs to be laws to hold the honest people to a bar and also outside of that all of the people policing fellow man, and today we’ve gone away from a society of telling people they’re doing wrong, it’s received in a horrible way. Personal pride leaving is a big part of it, being wrong isn’t a bad thing, it’s a learning experience, now if you know better than being wrong is a problem. We need to bring back public shaming also personal pride and public shaming can do a lot to deter nearly all law breaking.
 
Reading thru some of this morning. @Nutterbuster made a comment about how cheap a fine is a while ago down there in Alabama. I read this one. Then I start thinking about all the serious stuff people are getting away with because of stipulations and politics. Mean while some bro gets charged 6000 for a hunting fine. Seems your better off to steal stuff, avoid taxes, or murder someone rather than use bait to kill a deer. Screenshot_20231230-102710-888.png
 
kyler1945 said:
I think laws regulating when, how, and how many deer I can kill are stupid. And arbiritrary. And based on very little substance. But I generally follow the rules, and am in support of the rules being in place. Why? It’s got nothing to do with right and wrong.
If the state didn’t regulate deer hunting, “here in the North East anyway” every deer would be wiped out in a year. Here in New Jersey we have some zones where a hunter can kill 27 doe and 3 buck with just archery alone. Other zones Have unlimited antlerless. Why the state even encourages hunters to shoot this many deer boggles my mind. I hunt a lot and if I see a deer I consider that a good day because it’s not like we are infested with them to begin with. Imagine if there were no rules?
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the state didn’t regulate deer hunting, “here in the North East anyway” every deer would be wiped out in a year. Here in New Jersey we have some zones where a hunter can kill 27 doe and 3 buck with just archery alone. Other zones Have unlimited antlerless. Why the state even encourages hunters to shoot this many deer boggles my mind. I hunt a lot and if I see a deer I consider that a good day because it’s not like we are infested with them to begin with. Imagine if there were no rules?
 
2 weeks ago I was headed in for my evening sit. Got to the parking spot and there were a couple, uh more experienced hunters, hanging out on the their tailgate when I got there and we got talking for a few minutes when the CO rolled up. Nice guys all around, no troubles or anything.

Anyway one of the other guys asked the CO what the most common infraction was. CO replied, probably shooting deer without a license. Also said on opening day of firearm they go to to the processor at, noon I think ( having a brain fart here, sorry) and there will be a whole bunch of deer with tags on them purchased after 11. All those people get citations! We didn't get into penalties but he said the worst ticket he ever wrote was $14k, I think. Really nice guy but he was NOT messing around about some things. Other stuff he was pretty " meh" on
 
woodsdog2 said:
Why do they allow baiting in some areas and not others? Is there an overpopulation of deer in those areas?
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That's a good question . . . not sure I know all the details of the decision. According to the NRC (Natural Resource Commission) the original baiting ban was originally enacted to try to limit the spread of contagious disease in the herd (bovine tuberculosis at the time). There was enough push back from the hunters and bait sellers that the total ban was lifted for a while with allowable bait amounts restricted to 2 gallons spread over a 10x10 sq ft area. Then some cases of CWD were found in the lower peninsula and the baiting ban was re-enacted there. The allowable baiting rules stayed in effect in the UP since it is a separate land mass from the LP. Now however, CWD cases have been found in at least one UP county bordering WI. I'm not sure why the double standard still exists.

I do know supplemental feeding is allowed in the UP due the severity of the winter and maybe that is at least part of the basis for the baiting allowance. In the last decade the UP's deer herd has taken a real beating with the additional wolf predation on top of the rough winters. According to all my friends who live there and those I know who still venture up there to hunt just seeing deer is tough anymore.

Honestly I don't pay much attention to the baiting laws, other than a couple of years in the early 90's (when baiting was unrestricted) I have never hunted over bait. It just doesn't work well for me.

Now that I think about it . . . I think a lot of hunters here in the LP don't pay much attention to the baiting rules based on the amount of bait that gets sold locally. :tearsofjoy: Every gas station around seems to sell several pallets of "wildlife feed" every week starting in late September through the middle of December. It funny how sales of "feed" end with deer season and before the worst of winter snows really set in.
 
Horn said:
2 weeks ago I was headed in for my evening sit. Got to the parking spot and there were a couple, uh more experienced hunters, hanging out on the their tailgate when I got there and we got talking for a few minutes when the CO rolled up. Nice guys all around, no troubles or anything.

Anyway one of the other guys asked the CO what the most common infraction was. CO replied, probably shooting deer without a license. Also said on opening day of firearm they go to to the processor at, noon I think ( having a brain fart here, sorry) and there will be a whole bunch of deer with tags on them purchased after 11. All those people get citations! We didn't get into penalties but he said the worst ticket he ever wrote was $14k, I think. Really nice guy but he was NOT messing around about some things. Other stuff he was pretty " meh" on
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I think this is the easiest "catch" for the CO's and that is why it is the most common ticket. As you said, head to the processor, enter the tag number into the computer and compare the time to the purchase date/time.

However, based on the amount of bait sold every day, I'd bet baiting is the most common infraction by far but it is in reality one of those rules that are almost unenforceable given the COs workload/numbers. They can see really large bait piles with bait flights but if a guy is only dumping a bag at a time they almost have to stumble upon it or have someone report it. Even then, a bag of bait will disappear over night so timing on a small pile is everything. Myself, even though I'm not a proponent of baiting, I'm not calling in a report for a bait pile . . . and I don't think I'm in the minority on that.
 
boyne bowhunter said:
I think this is the easiest "catch" for the CO's and that is why it is the most common ticket. As you said, head to the processor, enter the tag number into the computer and compare the time to the purchase date/time.

However, based on the amount of bait sold every day, I'd bet baiting is the most common infraction by far but it is in reality one of those rules that are almost unenforceable given the COs workload/numbers. They can see really large bait piles with bait flights but if a guy is only dumping a bag at a time they almost have to stumble upon it or have someone report it. Even then, a bag of bait will disappear over night so timing on a small pile is everything. Myself, even though I'm not a proponent of baiting, I'm not calling in a report for a bait pile . . . and I don't think I'm in the minority on that.
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Agreed. The one local sporting goods site store here sells "squirrel " corn, complete with the quotes. I also don't report baiting, it would have to be something crazy for me to report it.

Also sounded like here in MI if they're able to have 2 CO per county , that's good around here. I can't imagine how two people could cover the whole county. Pretty tall task, even if a county is relatively small in the grand scheme of things
 
Horn said:
Agreed. The one local sporting goods site store here sells "squirrel " corn, complete with the quotes. I also don't report baiting, it would have to be something crazy for me to report it.

Also sounded like here in MI if they're able to have 2 CO per county , that's good around here. I can't imagine how two people could cover the whole county. Pretty tall task, even if a county is relatively small in the grand scheme of things
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We only have 1 per county in OH. 88 counties, and most of those are rural, spread out, and not your most compliant good-ole-boys when the Warden comes a-sniffin’. I think they work closely with Sheriff’s dept and local police, because there’s no way a single officer could keep up with deer season in a single county. I spoke to a friend who works as a Deputy, he believes they’re spread thin largely because it’s a highly competitive position and it takes a while to screen for/fill/train. Once you’re in you’re busy from the get-go and you’re busy all the time.
 
Horn said:
Agreed. The one local sporting goods site store here sells "squirrel " corn, complete with the quotes. I also don't report baiting, it would have to be something crazy for me to report it.

Also sounded like here in MI if they're able to have 2 CO per county , that's good around here. I can't imagine how two people could cover the whole county. Pretty tall task, even if a county is relatively small in the grand scheme of things
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The two CO per county is what I have heard too although they sometimes help out each other in neighboring counties or along county lines.

For over a decade now I have been spending a solid three weeks hunting remote while camping on state land. That's a camper parked in a turn around on a well travelled dead end two track. In that time I have seen a CO in camp exactly once. On that particular occasion they had found a "senior" member of our rifle hunting party who had become turned around and they drove him back to camp after dark. That is the only time I have had the bottom portion of the dispersed camping permit removed. I did talk to a CO in the general area a couple of years ago and mentioned this fact to her. She admitted she had seen my camp that year but it looked pretty tidy so she didn't actually stop at it.

I guess what I'm trying to say is expecting them to find discrepancies like bait, illegal stands or other isolated issues is a bit of a pipe dream, probably exactly why so many people test/bend the rules.
 
I would and do report illegal activities on public land to authorities. I have the number of a NWR agent and have sent him coordinates on cell cams and illegal stands before. I don't know if he or another agent ever go back and retrieve any of them. But I look at it from a few angles. One is that having a good a rapport with local agents is generally good, in my view. Second is that it is unfair and disrespectful to other hunters to bend/break rules on public land. We should desire for all hunters to abide by the stated regs, not only so we are all safe, but also so that we all have a level playing field for hunting. Third is that, even if reporting an infraction is not investigated or pursued for whatever reason, my hope is that the agency logs the infraction and it gives them data about general adherence to the regs and can aid them in future decisions, enforcement, etc.

Qualifier being that this agent told me they have had issues with poaching on the NWR, and in general, my state has a lot of hunters of the "regulations be damned" mentality, at least in my observation.
 
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