Podcast with The Ashby Bowhunting Foundation

[1simplemann]

With a bow yes, I only picked up archery hunting 3 years ago, I’ve been hunting longer and shooting bows for 15. there are other reasons for my switch but I’m not diving into all that, I’ve had zero issues with pass through a with my “lighter” arrows. I’ll use the heavier ones for my faster bow. But my older now draws and shoots like butter, hard to beat while hunting.

Don't take this the wrong way. Only trying to help. Your 3 years vs my 43 years. Your 5 deer with a bow vs my 100+ deer w/ a bow AND if I'm being truthful also TOO many lost deer. I have screwed up a bunch over the years. but I also have learned a few things. It's how we get to be better hunters. Anyway, 4 out of the 5 deer you've shot were alert by your admission. Where are you holding on alert deer? On the ones that you killed, where did you hit? I bet mid-body to high, On alert deer, it doesn't matter what speed your arrow is flying at. You HAVE to aim low. It is physically impossible to outrun the speed of sound w/ an arrow. SoS is roughly 1100 fps. Any speed increase you get is only marginal in terms of time to target. Your lighter arrow will only get there milli secs before the heavier arrow will. They duck because they are surprised. The quieter your arrows, the less jumping the string. The quieter the bow, the less jumping the string. Your "lighter" arrows are not the reason you killed those 2 deer w/ your previous setup. You may have passed thru 2 deer like butter but 2 deer is not a large enough sample size to say your "lighter" arrows are the "bee's knees" of set ups. Eventually you will hit bone. When you do, I promise you that day could be a bad day. Been there, done that. It it's even worse when it's big buck. Ask me how I know! The ONLY way that I know to prevent that bad day is to follow Ashby's principles. Your "older" bow is probably WAY faster than my Dad's Jenning's Model T. He lobbed them in there at a whopping 165-175 fps w/ 550 gr XX75's tipped w/ Bear Razorheads. They NEVER ducked. His bow was whisper quiet. This was back in the early 80's. He also didn't have penetration issues. Back then we didn't Have Ashby or the the Ranch Fairy or the Internet. You learned by doing it and screwing up. The old timers knew what worked and passed it on to the new guys coming up. It's only when I strayed away from what they taught me that I found out they were right all along. Heavy arrows tipped w/ non vented 2 blades give you blood trails that lead to dead deer. Now I'm that old guy w/ a white beard and I'm passing it on to you.

 

[ketch22]

Don't take this the wrong way. Only trying to help. Your 3 years vs my 43 years. Your 5 deer with a bow vs my 100+ deer w/ a bow AND if I'm being truthful also TOO many lost deer. I have screwed up a bunch over the years. but I also have learned a few things. It's how we get to be better hunters. Anyway, 4 out of the 5 deer you've shot were alert by your admission. Where are you holding on alert deer? On the ones that you killed, where did you hit? I bet mid-body to high, On alert deer, it doesn't matter what speed your arrow is flying at. You HAVE to aim low. It is physically impossible to outrun the speed of sound w/ an arrow. SoS is roughly 1100 fps. Any speed increase you get is only marginal in terms of time to target. Your lighter arrow will only get there milli secs before the heavier arrow will. They duck because they are surprised. The quieter your arrows, the less jumping the string. The quieter the bow, the less jumping the string. Your "lighter" arrows are not the reason you killed those 2 deer w/ your previous setup. You may have passed thru 2 deer like butter but 2 deer is not a large enough sample size to say your "lighter" arrows are the "bee's knees" of set ups. Eventually you will hit bone. When you do, I promise you that day could be a bad day. Been there, done that. It it's even worse when it's big buck. Ask me how I know! The ONLY way that I know to prevent that bad day is to follow Ashby's principles. Your "older" bow is probably WAY faster than my Dad's Jenning's Model T. He lobbed them in there at a whopping 165-175 fps w/ 550 gr XX75's tipped w/ Bear Razorheads. They NEVER ducked. His bow was whisper quiet. This was back in the early 80's. He also didn't have penetration issues. Back then we didn't Have Ashby or the the Ranch Fairy or the Internet. You learned by doing it and screwing up. The old timers knew what worked and passed it on to the new guys coming up. It's only when I strayed away from what they taught me that I found out they were right all along. Heavy arrows tipped w/ non vented 2 blades give you blood trails that lead to dead deer. Now I'm that old guy w/ a white beard and I'm passing it on to you.

No offense taken, I appreciate the input.

 

[1simplemann]

No offense taken, I appreciate the input.

Yeah but are you going to listen to it or are you gonna learn the hard way?

 

[ketch22]

Yeah but are you going to listen to it or are you gonna learn the hard way?

I’m gonna hope that wasn’t meant to come out as confrontational as it did. I’m not knocking any of your experiences nor sending any disrespect your way. I’m going to take a look at what I have, all the information out there, what options are available to me, and make a decision from there. I’m aware I’m still very new to this game with lots to learn, and every year I look at everything I’ve improved on and what I can do better and then prioritize from there what needs to be worked on.

 

[BTaylor]

Yeah but are you going to listen to it or are you gonna learn the hard way?

Unless he is eating your groceries and watchin your tv I dont think you get to ask that questions or at least get to expect an answer. He can shoot a relatively light arrow and zip them through most any critter he will ever hunt but he had better become an expert on bow and arrow tune as well as get real accurate shooting game. Is it optimal for the avg bow hunter, not in my opinion, but it can and does work when done right.

 

[BTaylor]

I’m gonna hope that wasn’t meant to come out as confrontational as it did. I’m not knocking any of your experiences nor sending any disrespect your way. I’m going to take a look at what I have, all the information out there, what options are available to me, and make a decision from there. I’m aware I’m still very new to this game with lots to learn, and every year I look at everything I’ve improved on and what I can do better and then prioritize from there what needs to be worked on.

I do the same thing and next season will be #43 for me. Three things make a lighter setup work, bow tune, arrow tune and accuracy on game. If all 3 are spot on, a lighter setup will work very well. Just keep in mind the lighter the setup goes, the less margin for error there is for good results. An almost full proof route is to shoot the heaviest arrow you can and keep your arrow in the 265-280 fps range. Above 280 and broadhead tune may start to get finnicky depending on the head.

 

[1simplemann]

I’m gonna hope that wasn’t meant to come out as confrontational as it did. I’m not knocking any of your experiences nor sending any disrespect your way. I’m going to take a look at what I have, all the information out there, what options are available to me, and make a decision from there. I’m aware I’m still very new to this game with lots to learn, and every year I look at everything I’ve improved on and what I can do better and then prioritize from there what needs to be worked on.

That may have come off as confrontational. It wasn't meant to be. However If you know me, I don't sugar coat things so according to my wife sometimes I'm too direct. I was trying to convey that the people that taught me OR tried to teach me spent a lifetime of bowhunting learning things by trial and error. When I was in my teens and early 20's I took some of it in but basically discarded the rest. I regret that now. I learned a lot of HARD lessons. There was no SH forum, Youtube, the internet or Ashby Reports to learn from. We had Bowhunter magazine. That's it. Now looking back, a lot and do mean a LOT of what they tried to teach me was right all along. They may not have known why it worked, just that it did. The old adage "if it ain't broke, then don't fix it" applies. In your case, you had/have a potentially lethal setup that your going discard because you had a bad experience. IMO You jumped to the conclusion that it's the setup's fault based on a small sample size AND the very real possibility that there were other factors that led to those bad experiences. Basically I'm just trying to save you some regrets. Please read and watch the Ashby Podcasts/Reports. It will save you some heart aches in the future.

 

[ketch22]

That may have come off as confrontational. It wasn't meant to be. However If you know me, I don't sugar coat things so according to my wife sometimes I'm too direct. I was trying to convey that the people that taught me OR tried to teach me spent a lifetime of bowhunting learning things by trial and error. When I was in my teens and early 20's I took some of it in but basically discarded the rest. I regret that now. I learned a lot of HARD lessons. There was no SH forum, Youtube, the internet or Ashby Reports to learn from. We had Bowhunter magazine. That's it. Now looking back, a lot and do mean a LOT of what they tried to teach me was right all along. They may not have known why it worked, just that it did. The old adage "if it ain't broke, then don't fix it" applies. In your case, you had/have a potentially lethal setup that your going discard because you had a bad experience. IMO You jumped to the conclusion that it's the setup's fault based on a small sample size AND the very real possibility that there were other factors that led to those bad experiences. Basically I'm just trying to save you some regrets. Please read and watch the Ashby Podcasts/Reports. It will save you some heart aches in the future.

I’ve read parts of the Ashby report, I’m not going to lie I didn’t read every word, I’ve trolled podcasts and YouTube for days in these subjects. I’m under the school of thought that there is a happy medium between speed and weight, I’m trying to find what that medium is for my bow. My groups were decent with my heavier arrows, 500 grains (about softball size at 40, but with my lighter 400 grain arrows I was touching arrows. That’s with field points and broadheads.

My heavier arrows are day six gear arrow. My lighter are beaman ICS whiteouts.

In terms of broad heads I’m shooting montecs G5. I played around with day six heats 2 blade but found the two blade design to be very unforgiving for me. Taking into account what you said about vented broadheads I’m looking to switch to G5’s M3 or possibly tooth of the arrow. I personally like a three blade because at this stage in the game for me they are easy to sharpen on a stone.

Like I said earlier I’m aware I’m still new and the amount of info available is like drinking from a fire house, I can only take in so much and change so much at one time. If the gear works I haven’t been trying to go too crazy because I feel focusing on woodsmanship at this point is of higher priority.

 

[Plebe]

If vented coc broadheads are so noisy as to be problematic, I wonder if mechanicals are even less problematic than non-vented coc broadheads. lol.

 

[Bowonly]

On alert deer, it doesn't matter what speed your arrow is flying at. You HAVE to aim low.

Here's a real world scenario. These are screen grabs from video of a buck i shot.

33 yards (near the limits of how far I'll shoot deer), alert, head up. Aim point was my pin low on his heart, windage in line with the small dark vine hanging over his back, elevation was at the edge of mowed field and tall weeds.

This is as the shot broke.




This is the impact at the yellow feathers high behind his shoulder.



Arrow went in, squared and broke spine and tip was poking out of skin on the exit side higher than the entry hole. He went down and I finished him with a quick follow up shot. I'm not proud of this but it's reality.

Now if my arrow was 100 grains heavier and 30 fps slower is this buck still dead or have an arrow through his backstrap? What about another 200 grains and 60 fps slower?

More penetration isn't always the solution to the problem.

 

[Horn]

Here's a real world scenario. These are screen grabs from video of a buck i shot.

33 yards (near the limits of how far I'll shoot deer), alert, head up. Aim point was my pin low on his heart, windage in line with the small dark vine hanging over his back, elevation was at the edge of mowed field and tall weeds.

This is as the shot broke.
View attachment 82146



This is the impact at the yellow feathers high behind his shoulder.
View attachment 82147


Arrow went in, squared and broke spine and tip was poking out of skin on the exit side higher than the entry hole. He went down and I finished him with a quick follow up shot. I'm not proud of this but it's reality.

Now if my arrow was 100 grains heavier and 30 fps slower is this buck still dead or have an arrow through his backstrap? What about another 200 grains and 60 fps slower?

More penetration isn't always the solution to the problem.

What TAW was the arrow you shot him with?

 

[Allegheny Tom]

Here's a real world scenario. These are screen grabs from video of a buck i shot.

33 yards (near the limits of how far I'll shoot deer), alert, head up. Aim point was my pin low on his heart, windage in line with the small dark vine hanging over his back, elevation was at the edge of mowed field and tall weeds.

This is as the shot broke.
View attachment 82146



This is the impact at the yellow feathers high behind his shoulder.
View attachment 82147


Arrow went in, squared and broke spine and tip was poking out of skin on the exit side higher than the entry hole. He went down and I finished him with a quick follow up shot. I'm not proud of this but it's reality.

Now if my arrow was 100 grains heavier and 30 fps slower is this buck still dead or have an arrow through his backstrap? What about another 200 grains and 60 fps slower?

More penetration isn't always the solution to the problem.

Shooting at an alert deer, a deer not only one that is alert but one that is actually looking our way before the release, is not a very wise shot choice.

 

[Bowonly]

What TAW was the arrow you shot him with?

460 grains
270 fps

 

[Horn]

460 grains

Thanks, just curious. I think I'm going to be slightly heavier at around 475, down from 500 last year which I know some people think is light or heavy lol. Doesn't matter but now that I think about it I think my current arrow wound up at 460 with a 100 gr tip

 

[Bowonly]

Shooting at an alert deer, a deer not only one that is alert but one that is actually looking our way before the release, is not a very wise shot choice.

I totally get it. I've made my share of poor decisions over the years bowhunting and am constantly trying to improve. Again, I'm not proud of that scenario but I bring it up because it's worth reviewing.

I've had more deer duck hard that were unalert than ones head up looking my way. Had a late season doe 3 years ago, 19 yards, broadside, head down feeding in acorns totally calm. My shot broke good but she exploded and wasn't there when my arrow got there. Thankfully it was a clean miss over her back.

Lots of factors to consider when choosing equipment and more arrow weight isn't necessarily the right medicine for everyone's situation.

 

[Weldabeast]

 

[Weldabeast]

I can't remember who or when or exact numbers because there's so many utubes and podcast about the same subject but 1of them had someone who was doing some testing and a 600ish gr with 30% foc was out penetrating lower foc arrows with total arrow weight 1000ish....that's why the mid 500gr builds working so well...they able to achieve high foc percentage with generally lower gpi on the arrow shaft so lower total arrow weight ... If u go nuts with it and want the big BH with the big inserts u gotta increase that spine and then next thing u know u have ridiculous total arrow weight. U really think I think that I need to shoot 700gr for our little deer....no way. The mid 500s i built worked just fine on deer and smaller hogs. I built heavy for our hogs and it's really just a personal preference....follow the 12 factors as much as u can on any total arrow weight and u made a better arrow

 

[1simplemann]

I totally get it. I've made my share of poor decisions over the years bowhunting and am constantly trying to improve. Again, I'm not proud of that scenario but I bring it up because it's worth reviewing.

I've had more deer duck hard that were unalert than ones head up looking my way. Had a late season doe 3 years ago, 19 yards, broadside, head down feeding in acorns totally calm. My shot broke good but she exploded and wasn't there when my arrow got there. Thankfully it was a clean miss over her back.

Lots of factors to consider when choosing equipment and more arrow weight isn't necessarily the right medicine for everyone's situation.

I would argue that more arrow weight would quiet the bow. With a quieter bow, less reaction from the deer. I haven't had a deer duck me in years. 220 fps. My buddy has this ancient 54" long compound. He shot it for at least 20 yrs. Slow as heck by todays standards. He shoot's big log aluminum's out of it. He's never chrono'd it but it's definitely less than 200 fps. Puffs on the strings and cables. That thing is the quietest bow I've ever heard. They don't duck him either. To date, I think he's well over 300+ bow kills. If he's shooting, usually they are going for a ride in his truck. The funny part of the story is that he's recently switched to some expensive X bow that shoot's well over 400 fps. they don't duck that either! LOL