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Radiographs of 38 deer shot with lead bullets, showing extensive fragmentation

My wife has been asking me this question since we were married. She prefers I shoot em with an arrow. I better not show her this, or I'll be a bow hunter only.
I will also note a pack of back straps I got from the processor had a bullet fragment in it. Looked and felt like lead. But I shot it right in the front leg, so I was not super close to the back straps. I can't confirm if it was from my bullet or was on the table when they cut mine up.

When lower Michigan went to allowing strait wall cartridges that was part of my reason for moving to them. I need to check what I'm shooting. But copper coated to me seemed better than a 3/4oz. Lead slug. This has me reconsidering the ammo I use. I might be looking for all copper.

Not a gun guy, but all there samples were from fast moving bullets right?
I would be curious how it compares to a slower moving bullet. Even a slower moving Muzzleloader lead ball. If the slow speed doesn't explode as much.
 
MattMan81 said:
My wife has been asking me this question since we were married. She prefers I shoot em with an arrow. I better not show her this, or I'll be a bow hunter only.
I will also note a pack of back straps I got from the processor had a bullet fragment in it. Looked and felt like lead. But I shot it right in the front leg, so I was not super close to the back straps. I can't confirm if it was from my bullet or was on the table when they cut mine up.

When lower Michigan went to allowing strait wall cartridges that was part of my reason for moving to them. I need to check what I'm shooting. But copper coated to me seemed better than a 3/4oz. Lead slug. This has me reconsidering the ammo I use. I might be looking for all copper.

Not a gun guy, but all there samples were from fast moving bullets right?
I would be curious how it compares to a slower moving bullet. Even a slower moving Muzzleloader lead ball. If the slow speed doesn't explode as much.
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You got the 450 over the 350? I know I can find all copper for my 350L, pricey , but I haven't looked at the big rounds. I'll check up this way if you'd like.

Glancing at the list, I do think those are all faster than straightwalls but I'm no gun guy either. Interesting info
 
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I guided a veteran on a hunt a few years ago. The hunt was sponsored in part by Ft Scott Munitions. They make spun copper rounds for .243,.308,etc. I was skeptical but saw first hand how devastating they were. I would have no problem hunting with them if they weren’t so pricey.
 
Looks good to go with the 30-06 165 grain bullets. Zero fragments. I knew I liked that combo.
 
I have seen these photos, they make you think. I saw this report after I switched, at that point it was just another reason to shoot copper solids. I was given some custom Barnes tsx loads for my 308 8-10 years ago and I really liked how the worked. My son has had good luck with the Winchester copper impacts as well in 243 and 6.5 cm. A nice controlled hole through any part of a whitetail and they don't destroy a ton of meat. I am not worried about not dumping all the energy from a load in a deer. I had a federal powershok hit a shoulder with the same 308 from 115 yds and the bullet didn't make to the inside of the opposite rib cage. All the energy of that bullet was dumped and it still made it 70 yds and lived for 40 min.. It was still alive when we caught up to it. The powershok are not a remington core lock either. The main reason I use them is they don't ruin a lot of meat like some loads.
 
thedutchtouch said:
Is the argument that you're ingesting lead? Would think that the majority of fragments are primarily in bloodshot areas and would cut away/discarded, no?
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I think that what most of the studies that I've read are arguing is that lead ammo poses a risk of lead poisoning to scavengers. In areas where there are endangered/protected scavengers like red wolves, golden eagles, or California condors, there's some friction between different environmental groups on whether lead ammo bans are common sense wildlife management or an attack on hunting and hunters.
 
Copper bullets flat work. They are better than lead bullets in almost every regard except price. That said I won't be buying them to shoot deer anytime soon, price being the limiting factor. I'm not concerned about getting lead in my meat that makes it to the table because I butcher my own, and if I used a butcher I wouldn't guarantee that what came back didn't have lead in it regardless of what I shot the critter with. As far as hurting the scavengers, I not sure the four legged kind live long enough to see the effects of it and there aren't any endangered birds in my region
 
I could get behind the no lead with in reason. I try to use the tungsten weights for fishing these days. If manufacturers needed to produce more lead free bullets I would think there would be initial rise in cost, but competition should drive it back some. Problem is they would want to ban it at ranges as well since I know the lead in the back stops has come up before.

Any kinda of law about ammunition in general will be a hot ticket item.
I think a good start would be making more all copper rounds available to the public.
 
Horn said:
You got the 450 over the 350? I know I can find all copper for my 350L, pricey , but I haven't looked at the big rounds. I'll check up this way if you'd like.

Glancing at the list, I do think those are all faster than straightwalls but I'm no gun guy either. Interesting info
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Bear creek makes an excellent bullet for 450, 350 and 44. All copper and out of Kalamazoo, MI


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
The problem is that many want to use the environmental argument to ban lead, then they will turn around and ban solid copper as armor piercing. Barnes, for instance, used to offer pointed solids all the way down to 5.56. No more. The smallest you can buy now is 9.3mm. Quite a few solid copper pistol rounds will zip through soft body armor like it is butter.
 
thedutchtouch said:
Is the argument that you're ingesting lead? Would think that the majority of fragments are primarily in bloodshot areas and would cut away/discarded, no?
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I’d like to see radiographs of processed meat in the freezer paper. Ready for consumption.
 
Glenn said:
I’d like to see radiographs of processed meat in the freezer paper. Ready for consumption.
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I believe those exist, there has been some contamination documented, very small pieces IIRC
 
I switched to copper bullets after I bit into lead chunks two meals in a row (not leftovers). I’ve only had one copper bullet lose a “pedal” and I found it while butchering. To me copper is well worth it.
 
I only use barnes tsx after my daughter found a lead fragment in a hind roast that was no where near the shot placement. I think the bullet hit the front shoulder and fragmented throughout the deer.

I've learned to use lighter copper loads to get about the same wound channels as lead.
 
lead has to get dissolved to really cause issues to you. swallowing lead wont be good. if you crunch on a lead bb or shell fragment, spit it out and youll be good.
 
I never understood how some people can be so against copper. My father, brother, tons of people we reload for at hunting camp and I have used Barnes bullets for close to 20 years. They're absolutely fabulous. Unless you use too light of a bullet that lacks section density, you will always have an exit hole. They smash through bone. Always expand. Do you need them for calibers 6.5 and up for deer? No. Lead works just fine.

However, I think a premium bullet like Barnes is warranted for 257 caliber and under. Half the members up camp rock a 243 Win.

We've had a number of terrible track jobs with the 243 with members who used pachinko lead bullets. They just don't hold together enough to get through the offside shoulder. I've even seen them fail to penetrate the soft mushy stomach from some of the kids up here.

That to me, is not acceptable performance on game.
 
I'm fine with bullets like Barnes TTSX since i found out to get better results with higher speed and lighter bullets.

I prefer 130gn over 150gn or 165gn in .308 and .30-06. They have more knock down power and never had a bullet sticking, because of retaining their mass.

There are lathed bullets with excellent precision like Sax KJG-SR and others.
For hunting, i will never go back to lead bullets.
 
Westfale said:
I'm fine with bullets like Barnes TTSX since i found out to get better results with higher speed and lighter bullets.

I prefer 130gn over 150gn or 165gn in .308 and .30-06. They have more knock down power and never had a bullet sticking, because of retaining their mass.

There are lathed bullets with excellent precision like Sax KJG-SR and others.
For hunting, i will never go back to lead bullets.
Click to expand...
There is no such thing as knock down power. Energy is simply what pushes the bullet through the beast. 130 in 308 caliber is definitely on the lighter side of section density. Compared to 150 or 165 gr, you will get much less penetration, and significantly more blood shot meat from the extreme velocity.
 
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