Rappel Rope, Friction Hitches, Tender

[MNFarmHunter]

I don't even know why I'm wading into this but here I am and for reference, I am NFPA 1006 High Angle Rescue qualified.

Everyone has their own knowledge, backgrounds and different tolerance to risks and comments in this thread demonstrate that. As a background to pass NFPA 1006 Ch.5, you need to:
1. Fix a single point anchor system
2. Tie (2) prusik cords of different lengths using double fishermans knots
3. Connect those prusiks to the rope
4. Climb the rope (40') using only those 2 prusiks
5. Changeover to a separate single anchor rope once at height
6. Rappel down

According to other posters, this is "dangerous" and should never be done. Bottom line to the above is if this is "safe enough" for the bubble wrapped world of NFPA, it'll do for anyone else.

However, the above isn't the easiest and there are all sorts of better mousetraps in terms of different hitches, mecahnicals, fixed vs. moving rope systems, etc. Many will say their mousetrap is "better and safer" than the previous. Maybe it is, maybe is isn't but that is up to the end-user, not the mousetrap saleman.

To the OP, my preferred method is base anchor SRT because my anchoring system is on the ground and can be inspected prior to the climb. While I prefer mechanicals to climb due to ease and simplicity, there is a cost and weight penalty to it. Once at height, I changeover to a separate tether as I can get better bridge angles and have better control on the platform. On the way down, I changeover to the climbing rope with a belay device and rappel down.

If I forgot all of my mechanical devices and only had my climbing rope, tether and linemans belt, I could still climb, hunt and descend by tying distel hitches and inchworming up the rope and inchworming down the rope. Others may decry this as a stupid idea, an unsafe idea or whatever else but in the end, we're all hawking a better mousetrap and every end-user needs to assess their abilities and level of risk.

Finally, "safety" is a nonsense word as it's subjective and based on the individuals perceived risk. After all, who in their right mind would climb a tree in the dark with a firearm or sharp, pointy stick, try to fire that weapon from sub-optimal positions then climb down with all this crap in the dark?

 

[Fl Canopy Stalker]

Absolutely correct, and good point: in a controlled setting, i will sometimes will test a friction hitch using Rappel as a test to assess jamming but we all should be using a friction hitch as a backup in Rappel and absorbing friction in a device, and I am partial to a Munter cuz I can't drop it like i can a figure 8. Incidentally, when I did MRS/DRT for 12 years, even though its a much lighter load, i always rigged a munter for rappel and the friction hitch was just along for the ride as a backup.

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I would only use a Munter in an emergency situation. I think less is more when rappelling in low light situations. I prefer a belay device which has dynamic load capability when I climb or rappel on a single rope. Easy up or down and a quick half hitch on the device if I need a few moments to operate hands free. Manufacturers recommend against hitches or Autoblocks on the tail end of the device (similar to how many ATC and figure 8 rappel guys do). I have ran a long hitch above the mechanical but a simple over hand knot around the device is pretty easy.

 

[Fl Canopy Stalker]

I don't even know why I'm wading into this but here I am and for reference, I am NFPA 1006 High Angle Rescue qualified.

Everyone has their own knowledge, backgrounds and different tolerance to risks and comments in this thread demonstrate that. As a background to pass NFPA 1006 Ch.5, you need to:
1. Fix a single point anchor system
2. Tie (2) prusik cords of different lengths using double fishermans knots
3. Connect those prusiks to the rope
4. Climb the rope (40') using only those 2 prusiks
5. Changeover to a separate single anchor rope once at height
6. Rappel down

According to other posters, this is "dangerous" and should never be done. Bottom line to the above is if this is "safe enough" for the bubble wrapped world of NFPA, it'll do for anyone else.

However, the above isn't the easiest and there are all sorts of better mousetraps in terms of different hitches, mecahnicals, fixed vs. moving rope systems, etc. Many will say their mousetrap is "better and safer" than the previous. Maybe it is, maybe is isn't but that is up to the end-user, not the mousetrap saleman.

To the OP, my preferred method is base anchor SRT because my anchoring system is on the ground and can be inspected prior to the climb. While I prefer mechanicals to climb due to ease and simplicity, there is a cost and weight penalty to it. Once at height, I changeover to a separate tether as I can get better bridge angles and have better control on the platform. On the way down, I changeover to the climbing rope with a belay device and rappel down.

If I forgot all of my mechanical devices and only had my climbing rope, tether and linemans belt, I could still climb, hunt and descend by tying distel hitches and inchworming up the rope and inchworming down the rope. Others may decry this as a stupid idea, an unsafe idea or whatever else but in the end, we're all hawking a better mousetrap and every end-user needs to assess their abilities and level of risk.

Finally, "safety" is a nonsense word as it's subjective and based on the individuals perceived risk. After all, who in their right mind would climb a tree in the dark with a firearm or sharp, pointy stick, try to fire that weapon from sub-optimal positions then climb down with all this crap in the dark?
View attachment 73702

I love that you mentioned SRT and mechanicals. I use SRT on pine trees but rarely ever do I use a basal anchor simply because of the force across the crotch. Our pines don’t always have the thickest strongest limbs so I prefer to canopy anchor. As one of the guys who mentioned safety for single rope hitch climbing, I have a couple questions regarding this post. First is multiple hitches means no single hitch is being used for 100% of the friction for the climb or rappel. Secondly are the NFPA rescuers trained before demonstrating this? Is the training live or simply over the internet? Most fire rescue guys I know, utilize a professional mechanical ascender/descender like the one ISC makes so I am assuming you would be trained to do this. I would also assume you must recertify each year. How often do you reuse a rope or hitch after single hitch climbing for rescue as opposed to using a mechanical. All these things are relevant because it’s not an apples to apples comparison. Inch worming up on two hitches is definitely doable. As is getting down that way but for a person who hasn’t spent a lot of time training or learning that method, how long would they possibly be stuck dangling in the saddle? How exhausted would they be? You say safety is subjective which I can sort of agree with. But what would make it subjective would be someone’s education, training and experience. Working on or around extremely high voltages is normal in my day to day life but it would be extremely unsafe for a normal weekend guy who wire his ceiling fan using a book from Home Depot.

 

[MNFarmHunter]

I love that you mentioned SRT and mechanicals. I use SRT on pine trees but rarely ever do I use a basal anchor simply because of the force across the crotch. Our pines don’t always have the thickest strongest limbs so I prefer to canopy anchor. As one of the guys who mentioned safety for single rope hitch climbing, I have a couple questions regarding this post. First is multiple hitches means no single hitch is being used for 100% of the friction for the climb or rappel. Secondly are the NFPA rescuers trained before demonstrating this? Is the training live or simply over the internet? Most fire rescue guys I know, utilize a professional mechanical ascender/descender like the one ISC makes so I am assuming you would be trained to do this. I would also assume you must recertify each year. How often do you reuse a rope or hitch after single hitch climbing for rescue as opposed to using a mechanical. All these things are relevant because it’s not an apples to apples comparison. Inch worming up on two hitches is definitely doable. As is getting down that way but for a person who hasn’t spent a lot of time training or learning that method, how long would they possibly be stuck dangling in the saddle? How exhausted would they be? You say safety is subjective which I can sort of agree with. But what would make it subjective would be someone’s education, training and experience. Working on or around extremely high voltages is normal in my day to day life but it would be extremely unsafe for a normal weekend guy who wire his ceiling fan using a book from Home Depot.

This is the craziness about everything with rope techniques. If the upper limb is weak such as a pine, a canopy anchor is your only choice whereas with hardwoods, thigh thick limbs are common and work well for a base anchor.

As to 1006, this was a 2-week hands-on course where we spent 8+ hours a days tying anchors, tying hitches then using those hitches. For what may be an extra cringe for the arborists here, we'd use load distributing anchors by tying a double loop 8 and 3 carabiners then do 2-person pick-offs on that single rope. You're also correct that mechanicals are used because they're easier but we learn on the most basic: a piece of accessory cord we tie into a loop with a double fishermans and a prusik hitch on a single rope.

My overall concern with threads like this (but not the only one) is the better mousetrap sales pitch that some push. You're absolutely correct that there are all types on this forum, some who's only experience with ropes is tying their shoe laces. My point to all of this, which may be largely due to my professional upbringing, is to start with the basics then decide where to go.

There are so many different methods posted on this forum, pushed by those passionate about their particular method (myself included), that many may not ever learn the basics which is the ground level to everything else. IMO, you need to know who to climb up/down with just (2) accessory cords and (1) carabiner before doing every else posted on this forum.

Learn the basics, then add complications.

 

[Fl Canopy Stalker]

This is the craziness about everything with rope techniques. If the upper limb is weak such as a pine, a canopy anchor is your only choice whereas with hardwoods, thigh thick limbs are common and work well for a base anchor.

As to 1006, this was a 2-week hands-on course where we spent 8+ hours a days tying anchors, tying hitches then using those hitches. For what may be an extra cringe for the arborists here, we'd use load distributing anchors by tying a double loop 8 and 3 carabiners then do 2-person pick-offs on that single rope. You're also correct that mechanicals are used because they're easier but we learn on the most basic: a piece of accessory cord we tie into a loop with a double fishermans and a prusik hitch on a single rope.

My overall concern with threads like this (but not the only one) is the better mousetrap sales pitch that some push. You're absolutely correct that there are all types on this forum, some who's only experience with ropes is tying their shoe laces. My point to all of this, which may be largely due to my professional upbringing, is to start with the basics then decide where to go.

There are so many different methods posted on this forum, pushed by those passionate about their particular method (myself included), that many may not ever learn the basics which is the ground level to everything else. IMO, you need to know who to climb up/down with just (2) accessory cords and (1) carabiner before doing every else posted on this forum.

Learn the basics, then add complications.

Thank you for the awesome response.

 

[wyetterp]

I use my rappel rope for everything. There's no need to overly complicate things or have tie knots you have to use a nail to rig. Unless you are really good at stuff like that. Me, it makes my head hurt knowing there are much easier, simpler ways that are just as safe, if not safer, because you are keeping it simple.

Don't over-complicate things unless you are on a professional climbing level. Not sure if you are or not. Are you?

Me, I'm not by any means, nor do I want to be. I prefer things I can do in the pitch black & when I'm past exhausted. Heck, I still like to tie my shoe laces with bunny ears.

Maybe learn the VT prusik. It would fit the bill for what you are asking for & basic. Would work great with the equipment you already have. It's easily tied & repeatable. It's one knot that can be used for almost everything we do.

I use my rappel rope with a madrock & autoblock or VT. I keep them both always attached to my lineman loops for when I want them. It's all I need & works for onesticking & srt. I also use it even if I'm using sticks & a platform. I like being able to rappel down anytime, with any kind of set up.

Maybe you are on a professional climbing level & asking. If so maybe you want the more complicated techniques. They do have benefits. If so, have at it & enjoy. If not, then just keep it simple.

 

[wyetterp]

I'm sorry but this is getting my blood pressure up. I really don't understand why some of these things & techniques are even being suggested for people who might be on a novice level. What happens if a novice does this incorrectly in the dark? It's suggesting stuff like this, to a novice, that can leave someone hanging helplessly or worse. Those methods are not easy & honestly way over complicated to just accomplish getting safely to 20 feet to hunt.

After reading through the OP's post I'm pretty sure he's at a basic level with everything, as are most of us.

People who are on a more experienced level know how to find & can reach out to learn different techniques & methods. There's plenty of room on here & social media to pitch, evaluate & discuss more complicated techniques. Jumping on threads & suggesting them to beginners is dangerous imo.

 

[John RB]

I'm sorry but this is getting my blood pressure up. I really don't understand why some of these things & techniques are even being suggested for people who might be on a novice level. What happens if a novice does this incorrectly in the dark? It's suggesting stuff like this, to a novice, that can leave someone hanging helplessly or worse. Those methods are not easy & honestly way over complicated to just accomplish getting safely to 20 feet to hunt.

After reading through the OP's post I'm pretty sure he's at a basic level with everything, as are most of us.

People who are on a more experienced level know how to find & can reach out to learn different techniques & methods. There's plenty of room on here & social media to pitch, evaluate & discuss more complicated techniques. Jumping on threads & suggesting them to beginners is dangerous imo.

Respectfully, what do you feel was suggested that anyone would do in the dark? Nothing suggested is done in the dark. Friction hitches are tied and tested in advance and left on the line.

The OP asked if anyone climbs with a rappel rope and what friction hitch to use and about a tender. It's a good question and the discussion seems to be on point.

You didn't answer his question at all, but imply that climbing safely to hunting height is simple. But it's not. Most of the saddle hunting world is not climbing up with a tether or rappel rope, and just using a lineman's belt, which puts them at risk of injury or fall if a stick kicks out. The only way to make sure that doesn't happen is to be tied in and managing slack. If you have never done it, we need a system where slack can be removed with one hand. Now, let's say the stick came off the tree completely and fell to the ground.... but we were on no slack... well, this would be an awful time to be on a tether, wouldn't it? Cuz most would be calling for help to get out of that situation. But the OP is gonna be fine because he's on a rappel rope and is going to manage slack. If you're aware of a safer and simpler method to climb where we never are dependent on our footing and always have an unencumbered path to ground, please share it. But a lineman's belt isn't a solution. Nor is a tether.


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[bfriendly]

I like these questions and quite frankly, I’m glad you started a new thread instead of using the search feature =0)

I can see climbing with 2 prussiks and bet that training was a lot of fun! It’s above my pay grade but I totally see why rescuers would learn such a thing….that’s badazz

 

[Beacher]

So, nobody should climb/rappel DRT on a Blake's hitch?

 

[Fl Canopy Stalker]

So, nobody should climb/rappel DRT on a Blake's hitch?

Ddrt is not a single rope single friction point climbing method. The hitch shares some of the weight and friction with the crotch the rope doubles over. One should not climb or rappel with a Blake’s hitch using SRT method with the obvious exception of an emergency situation.

 

[John RB]

Ddrt is not a single rope single friction point climbing method. The hitch shares some of the weight and friction with the crotch the rope doubles over. One should not climb or rappel with a Blake’s hitch using SRT method with the obvious exception of an emergency situation.

Excellent comment. I am in 100% agreement. Also, having done a lot of SRT on friction hitches, for anyone learning, there are 2 other important factors to understand whether its SRT or a rappel only application:
1. In MRS, or any doubled rope method, when we break the hitch to start rappel, we are breaking it with half our body weight. When on a single rope, we are breaking it with our full body weight. Not withstanding all the variables such as our weight and materials used, we wont have the strength to break most friction hitches under the weight of our full body weight. When I started out, I knew of exactly none. I have introduced 2: the double Michoacán and the JRB Ascender. Happy to put more on that list if anyone has suggestions. Remember, this all needs to work even in an abnormal situation, with no footing, such as after a platform failure.
2. I realize a lot of climbers like their friction hitch really compact, so they can have a low TIP or tie in point. MRS climbers in arborist applications also do, so they can get right up to their TIP so they can cut over it. But in single rope, i prefer that the top of my carabiner is several inches (even a foot) from the bottom coil of the friction hitch, as it wraps around the rope. This ensures room to install our friction device. Note that this is not a concern if we have a 2nd, shorter bridge, because we can install it there.

But it's important to have at least a few inches betw

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[K.D.P]

I know this is another dumb question but, has any used an ATC with a hitch above to rappel? I’m looking to use a VT or a schwabisch hitch above my ATC. Has anyone had any experience with these?

 

[BTaylor]

I know this is another dumb question but, has any used an ATC with a hitch above to rappel? I’m looking to use a VT or a schwabisch hitch above my ATC. Has anyone had any experience with these?

Currently using a munter hitch below a friction hitch which I guess is the same principle. Using happy hands hitch on one rope and JRB ascender hitch on the other rope. No issues with either one so far.

 

[mtsrunner]

I know this is another dumb question but, has any used an ATC with a hitch above to rappel? I’m looking to use a VT or a schwabisch hitch above my ATC. Has anyone had any experience with these?

Sure can. Go to the 6:45 mark of this video. But learn how to use a Munter. ATC is an easy thing to drop. Keeping a spare carabiner on your person is a wise idea.

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[K.D.P]

I carry my ATC and a figure 8 in my back. I also have a Mammut 2.0 I’m thinking about packing as well

 

[cheecho67]

The specs for it are easily located on the manufacturer website. My notes said 2787 lbs MBS. Every climber has to accept the responsibility to purchase reputable products from reputable manufacturers and suppliers. But I am of the opinion that its great cord.

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So which hitch is more dependable? The longhorn agile ,the agile hitch or the ascender hitch? What’s your go to? And anyone else’s input is welcomed.

 

[John RB]

So which hitch is more dependable? The longhorn agile ,the agile hitch or the ascender hitch? What’s your go to? And anyone else’s input is welcomed.

The concensus in my Facebook group is that the Longhorn Agile is the preferred option.

JrbTreeClimbing.com, affiliated with RockNArbor.com

 

[cheecho67]

The concensus in my Facebook group is that the Longhorn Agile is the preferred option.

JrbTreeClimbing.com, affiliated with RockNArbor.com

Well that is what I will try going to make the Garda hitch foot loop and the longhorn hitch

 

[John RB]

Well that is what I will try going to make the Garda hitch foot loop and the longhorn hitch

Are you building an SRT system? If so, then I would agree that this is a great combination. The last piece is deciding what retrievable anchor(s) you prefer. For me, if I could only use one anchor, it would be the Maverick hitch. Let me know if you need any help. I have a lot of info growing on my website too. That's what I do. Cheers

JrbTreeClimbing.com, affiliated with RockNArbor.com