Rockwell experts

[Allegheny Tom]

With all the latest attention on Broadheads and arrow builds, the one thing that is seldom mentioned is Rockwell hardness. I realize the higher the number, the harder the steel. The harder the steel, the more difficult to sharpen but the edge is more durable. Also, the harder the steel the more brittle the steel and the softer steel has more chance of bending.
But, for instance, The GrizzlyStik black label heads are 58 Rockwell and the Overkill are 54 Rockwell. Otherwise, the heads look identical (other than the color of the ferrule). The Overkill cost about 40% less than the black label. That's quite a bit of a difference in price.
So, is gaining 4 Rockwell points worth spending $90 as opposed to $50?

 

[Hunter260]

In my opinion, which is quite limited in knives and broadheads, I wouldn’t get too tore up about Rockwell hardness. It seems like since a broadhead is only going to cut 1 thing and then be resharpened for the next deer then Rockwell wouldn’t matter. I think you could argue that a harder steel has a higher chance of being brittle and breaking which is much worse than a softer steel having an edge roll or bend when hitting a hard bone. I’ve also heard the iron will guy talk about how important it is to have a high Rockwell hardness in a head, but then again he’s selling broadheads..... If both broadheads are exactly alike except price and hardness id go the cheaper route.

 

[BTaylor]

Seems like I remember reading some stuff on that where the actual hardness number in and of itself was not a true tell. The type of steel used determined the appropriate hardness for use in a blade and it's resulting characteristics such as ease of sharpening and edge retention. So based on that I would think the 4 points would make a difference if you are talking about 2 heads made of the same steel or you could have 2 heads with virtually the exact same characteristics but entirely different hardness numbers because of the difference in the steel used. That stuff is over my head though so I may be off base.

 

[ricky racer]

In my opinion, which is quite limited in knives and broadheads, I wouldn’t get too tore up about Rockwell hardness. It seems like since a broadhead is only going to cut 1 thing and then be resharpened for the next deer then Rockwell wouldn’t matter. I think you could argue that a harder steel has a higher chance of being brittle and breaking which is much worse than a softer steel having an edge roll or bend when hitting a hard bone. I’ve also heard the iron will guy talk about how important it is to have a high Rockwell hardness in a head, but then again he’s selling broadheads..... If both broadheads are exactly alike except price and hardness id go the cheaper route.

What Hunter260 said.....

 

[ImThere]

I don't think you would ever notice a difference unless you shooting rocks,trees, fences or the like
for a soft skinned deer you wont see any difference IMHO

 

[Allegheny Tom]

I'm not at all "tore up" about Rockwell hardness, but I was having a conversation with someone about the Overkill versus the black label GrizzlyStik broad heads which vary greatly in price. I started to wonder if only 4 Rockwell points was worth paying almost double the price. It was that thought that reminded me that Rockwell numbers are not talked about very much when we discuss broad heads. I just thought it might make for some educating discussion.
I already have my arrows dialed-in for this season. I'm not shopping for heads and I'm satisfied with the Samurai that I bought. But I DO wonder if I should have bought the Overkill version and save myself some money...so I can spend it on OTHER stuff that this forum forces me to buy! LOL.

 

[boyne bowhunter]

Seems like I remember reading some stuff on that where the actual hardness number in and of itself was not a true tell. The type of steel used determined the appropriate hardness for use in a blade and it's resulting characteristics such as ease of sharpening and edge retention. So based on that I would think the 4 points would make a difference if you are talking about 2 heads made of the same steel or you could have 2 heads with virtually the exact same characteristics but entirely different hardness numbers because of the difference in the steel used. That stuff is over my head though so I may be off base.

This ^^^^ IMHO.

 

[Guff Dawg]

I don't think you would ever notice a difference unless you shooting rocks,trees, fences or the like
for a soft skinned deer you wont see any difference IMHO

These broad heads have a propensity of zipping through the game animal and hitting the items you mention.

 

[gameflogger]

I just try to make sure that my broadheads’ steel is harder than woodpecker lips!

 

[Still Kicking]

56 Rockwell on the C scale is ideal for edge retention. It can vary several points and still make a great edge. High carbon steel holds a sharper and longer edge than most Stainless Steel. It is not really important on one pass through an animal. Any razor sharp head will do the trick for one shot through. If you intend to use it again, simply resharpen it.

 

[Allegheny Tom]

56 Rockwell on the C scale is ideal for edge retention. It can vary several points and still make a great edge. High carbon steel holds a sharper and longer edge than most Stainless Steel. It is not really important on one pass through an animal. Any razor sharp head will do the trick for one shot through. If you intend to use it again, simply resharpen it.

Thanks for "real" info.
How do the Rockwell numbers relate to heads being too brittle and prone to break or too soft and prone to bend?
Once again, I have my heads, I'm not sitting here agonizing over Rockwell numbers. But I did have the conversation on what the difference of hardness is in the various Grizzlystik heads and I thought it might be a good topic to discuss. I knew minimal info about Rockwell and I know some other guys know zero about it and others know all the scoop. That's why I asked.
I thought it was a relevant question.

 

[CamoMan]

I agree with what has been said above. I have a few high rockwell kitchen knives upwards of 62+ and have amazing edge retention (can use for months and still shave hair) but they are very brittle. If you have any sideways force or try to cut frozen meat you could easily chip the edge. But for a kitchen knife it is about edge retention as they are getting used quite a bit. In regards to a broadhead it is only used once before resharpening as stated above. So as long as it is hard enough to hold a sharp edge as it is going through an animal even after some bone or cartilage impact it should suffice. One that is too soft could easily dull upon impact.

 

[CamoMan]

Here is some info from Iron Will they posted a few years ago.

"For edge retention, Hardness matters! Here are high magnification pictures of 3 edges after two passes through hair and hide of a tanned deer hide and an inch of foam from yesterday’s force testing. The first two are top selling broadheads made of 420 stainless steel at about 50 HRC hardness (the most commonly used blade steel). The third picture is the Iron Will Broadhead at 60 HRC hardness. Broadheads kill by slicing tissues, not pushing it aside. Which broadhead would you want to use?"

 

[Weldabeast]

So many variables....each material with have its sweet spot...the knife making world would be a good place to start your research if u really interested.....with companies like bishop u are paying more for the heat treat than the material.....

 

[Sniper4hire]

I never try to sharpen blades, I'm not good at it. So i use replaceable blade type heads and once a broadhead gets shot, no matter what it hits, the blades get replaced. Easy peasy.
As for knives, I love soft steel knives because I can actually do a good knife edge. Soft steel makes it easy.

 

[Still Kicking]

Here is some info from Iron Will they posted a few years ago.

"For edge retention, Hardness matters! Here are high magnification pictures of 3 edges after two passes through hair and hide of a tanned deer hide and an inch of foam from yesterday’s force testing. The first two are top selling broadheads made of 420 stainless steel at about 50 HRC hardness (the most commonly used blade steel). The third picture is the Iron Will Broadhead at 60 HRC hardness. Broadheads kill by slicing tissues, not pushing it aside. Which broadhead would you want to use?"

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Yes, all of the major makers of knifes are also going to 420 stainless and it is a tragedy (in my opinion). A lot of folks like an edge that sharpens quickly as opposed to one that lasts. Take it from an old Toolmaker, if you have to have stainless go with 440C. And D-2 steel at 56 R/C is about as perfect as you can get for a knife blade.

 

[CamoMan]

Yes, all of the major makers of knifes are also going to 420 stainless and it is a tragedy (in my opinion). A lot of folks like an edge that sharpens quickly as opposed to one that lasts. Take it from an old Toolmaker, if you have to have stainless go with 440C. And D-2 steel at 56 R/C is about as perfect as you can get for a knife blade.

I have handmade Japanese knives and they are awesome for edge retention. Takes some time to get a good edge on and some practice but they hold it forever. I have and R2 stainless at 62 HRC and it’s lasts months before needing a touch up. And I also have an augomi super knife that is around 63 HRC and it holds even longer. I gotta be careful with the AS blade since it isn’t stainless and has iron cladding so the whole knife is reactive. Love those knives though

 

[Allegheny Tom]

I appreciate the input on how this relates to knives, but that is (somewhat) apples to oranges.
Knife blades do not need to stand up to being driven thru bone.


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[JC3]

I agree with Still Kicking, as I am a 40+ year toolmaker.
Once you get above the 55 R/c scale the average Joe will not notice the difference in edge retention on a broadhead.
Keeping the hardness at 55 - 58 will give you the edge retention you need for broadheads, tough, hard and durable.
Getting above and into the 60 Rockwell hardness range you will encounter sharpening challenges, if not practiced at sharpening.
The different steels will also react differently to the range of hardnesses.
D2 at 60 R/c will be a challenge for anyone to sharpen, whereas A2 is not quite as difficult , but still takes time and skill

 

[Allegheny Tom]

I guess what I was most curious about was more about bending versus breaking. Not really worried about the edge. I can determine adequate sharpness in hand. But I cant know if a head is too soft (prone to bend) or too hard (brone to break).

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