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Rope retrieval after rappel- prussic problem

gwhalin said:
Some people just like being the party pooper?

If this happens, I will hang patiently and calmly because I didn't die, pull out my hand ascender and clip back on the rope, pull myself up a few feet and then move on without being too upset about things (other than wondering why my grigri slipped). And yes I have read the grigri manual. The grigri is for belay, and their suggestion makes more sense when you thinking about using for a belay situation. My approach works just fine for RADS/SRT.
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Like being the pooper? Nah, just dont like people reading things getting misconceived notions about what the proper use, or in this case backup is on a device.

Think about other people reading this who may not have carried and extra ascender, or piece of cordage to make a prussik?

"Just fine" ? Why not just do it the right way instead of fiddling around with all those extra steps to avoid the problem in the beginning or additional problems while adding more systems into the mix?
 
Vtbow said:
Why do I always have to be the party pooper...
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Because you know what you're doing? And because most climbing device manuals seem designed to be as vague as possible, tell you a bunch of things you shouldn't do, and at best hint at what you should do. Just enough to disavow all knowledge of how someone might use or misuse their equipment.

Petzl seems to frequently (and refreshingly) be much more open to giving actual usage guidance (as in this case). Madrock (for the safeguard) frustratingly goes in the opposite direction - their manuals are not easily available online, and the only guidance they give is how to hold/attach it, plus:
1606243697800.png

Is the grigri knot appropriate? Probably. But not approved.
 
Vtbow said:
Like being the pooper? Nah, just dont like people reading things getting misconceived notions about what the proper use, or in this case backup is on a device.

Think about other people reading this who may not have carried and extra ascender, or piece of cordage to make a prussik?

"Just fine" ? Why not just do it the right way instead of fiddling around with all those extra steps to avoid the problem in the beginning or additional problems while adding more systems into the mix?
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If you don't have an extra piece of cord you just tie another alpine butterfly for your foot near the tag end of your rope then use the tag end to tie a blakes hitch above the grigri and then do just what he described.

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mattsteg said:
Is this the 10 minutes of instruction thread?:)
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If you are climbing SRT you already have a friction hitch or ascender on you... this tip was for people who stick then rappel and weren't smart enough to carry any extra cordage.

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ThereWillBeSpuds said:
If you don't have an extra piece of cord you just tie another alpine butterfly for your foot near the tag end of your rope then use the tag end to tie a blakes hitch above the grigri and then do just what he described.

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Just because you can get out of the situation doesn't mean you should put yourself in the situation to begin with...Jeez what kind of reasoning is this???...Why when there is a PROPER way to tie it off???

I mean, this is like bringing a 50m rope to a rappel you know you're going to need a 60m rope for and then saying "It's ok, I"ll have a bunch of pro with me, I"ll just build an anchor and setup another rappel station"
 
Vtbow said:
Like being the pooper? Nah, just dont like people reading things getting misconceived notions about what the proper use, or in this case backup is on a device.

Think about other people reading this who may not have carried and extra ascender, or piece of cordage to make a prussik?

"Just fine" ? Why not just do it the right way instead of fiddling around with all those extra steps to avoid the problem in the beginning or additional problems while adding more systems into the mix?
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My way is the right way. I am not using the grigri hands free without it being backed up. I am using a different backup than the one in the manual, but that is pretty common in the climbing world to have different ways to tie off. Nobody is falling or dying and at worst it is a very mild inconvenience (if it even happens, which I have literally never seen a grigri slip on in-spec rope). You are just picking nits, I think because maybe you like to argue on the Internet?
 
@Vtbow the very fact that you used the "what if you don't have an ascender" hypothetical as a "gotcha" question tells me you probably don't have enough experience climbing or descending ropes for me to worry about what you do and do not think is best practices.

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Jokerswild said:
This!
Thats my number 1 fear. something catching on that lever while at hunt mode.
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Im guessing by this post you have never held a safeguard. The lever has to be lifted up and rotated 90 deg before even thinking about starting to loosen its bite on the rope. It actually takes some effort to get it started when decending.
 
gwhalin said:
My way is the right way. I am not using the grigri hands free without it being backed up. I am using a different backup than the one in the manual, but that is pretty common in the climbing world to have different ways to tie off. Nobody is falling or dying and at worst it is a very mild inconvenience (if it even happens, which I have literally never seen a grigri slip on in-spec rope). You are just picking nits, I think because maybe you like to argue on the Internet?
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Feel free to think what you like. Are there tons of ways to do things in the climbing world that are all ok? Of course. All I'm trying to do is communicate industry best practices. Does what you do work? Yes. Will you find an industry professional who feels the alpine butterfly tied off below a device is a better option the the tie off with the mule, nope. You've obviously made up your mind on what you feel is best for you, but be aware of the many people who read it and assume what you are communicating is the best practice.

ThereWillBeSpuds said:
@Vtbow the very fact that you used the "what if you don't have an ascender" hypothetical as a "gotcha" question....

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It was far from a "gotcha" question, its a possible situation--especially to new users not experienced, or who have not thought their self rescue scenarios out thoroughly.

ThereWillBeSpuds said:
@Vtbow ... you probably don't have enough experience climbing or descending ropes for me to worry about what you do and do not think is best practices.

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Sure, I'm a keyboard warrior, with 0 real life climbing experience or technical rope experience. That's cool, think what you like. doesn't bother me--but, there are lots of newbs out there who deserve to be aware of potentially bad situations that are easily avoidable. I gave you a very specific scenario as to why there is a better method and you gave me the "ya, but"...
 
@Vtbow, I'm not trying to get you to pat yourself on the back here but for those "newbs" who may be following this thread it may be useful for you to give some history on your background. It will lend credence to your point of view.
 
ThereWillBeSpuds said:
@Vtbow the very fact that you used the "what if you don't have an ascender" hypothetical as a "gotcha" question tells me you probably don't have enough experience climbing or descending ropes for me to worry about what you do and do not think is best practices.

Sent from my SM-A516V using Tapatalk
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Something tells me that you don't have a ton of experience, in particular regarding the stupid **** people do when they know no better (and oftentimes even if they do). Maybe "enough experience to be dangerous." Have you seen the lengths that people go through to "minimize" and "streamline"? And how little attention that they pay to backup plans? In many cases their plan at best is something semi-ridiculous like try to screw in a single screw-in step (with no leverage).

And fortunately enough the vast majority of the time everything ends up fine even if someone's screwing up time and time again. But eventually someone gets bit.
 
boyne bowhunter said:
@Vtbow, I'm not trying to get you to pat yourself on the back here but for those "newbs" who may be following this thread it may be useful for you to give some history on your background. It will lend credence to your point of view.
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Thanks, I understand, but I decided once this place blew up and people were blindly following what they saw others doing I didn't really feel like I wanted to share that information...Everyone is always looking for someone to blame and I don't want to be in that situation. What I hope to do is get people to question everything they do and seek out credible sources and best practices from industry professionals. Maybe my usefulness has been outlived and my goal of being helpful has been overshadowed by arrogance--It may just be time for me to move on in general.
 
"Nothing is 'safer' you are just assuming different risks."

I'll continue to tie my grigri off the way I do, which is quick, doesn't require a second carabiner and which I can reliably do in the dark.

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mattsteg said:
So questioning whether someone would have a ascender is a "gotcha" but having 2 carabiners (like literally all saddle hunters in my experience) is in question? That's a take for sure.
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No I was saying that him treating it like a gotcha implied that he thought there wasn't a way of doing it without an ascender. I do carry extra carabiners but they are extras, not pieces I have to fiddle with every time I take my hand off the tag end of my rope.

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Vtbow said:
Thanks, I understand, but I decided once this place blew up and people were blindly following what they saw others doing I didn't really feel like I wanted to share that information...Everyone is always looking for someone to blame and I don't want to be in that situation. What I hope to do is get people to question everything they do and seek out credible sources and best practices from industry professionals. Maybe my usefulness has been outlived and my goal of being helpful has been overshadowed by arrogance--It may just be time for me to move on in general.
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Do we have any industry professionals on this forum? With proof LOL
 
I don't know people's level of experience, but I know mine and I feel very comfortable with my time in a tree climbing, both hunting and otherwise. I trust my skills and my level of safety. I also know many climbing professionals in the arborist industry and I can't think of a singe one of them who would say "the only way to tie off is a [specific] hitch" (not that any of them are using a grigri).

No doubt it makes sense if I am belaying a climber (as the grigri is designed to do), but for RADS/SRT style climbing there is literally nothing dangerous about tying a stopper knot vs a mule hitch. Worst case is a very mild inconvenience and to portray it as a safety issue is a more than a bit ridiculous.
 
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