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Ropeman and kong damages ropes in 20” drop

Hm. I like my CT rollnlocks because theres no tending like knots, but yeah, between these safety threads and the whole ropes don't make noise like metal does... Dang it. Guess I'm getting that length of TRC back out...
 
If you do not introduce slack into your system, you cannot fall, so that should not be a problem. That being said, I trust friction hitches more. I see ascenders the way I look at the safety on my firearms...it is a mechanical device that could fail.
 
Fl Canopy Stalker said:
By the time I was “swung into the tree”and done with the fall, I could put my feet on the step below me. I’m fact I did so to stand back up. Yes it swings you in and somewhat pinches you, however that is still a dynamic drop.
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Swinging you in and pinching you produces dramatically less load than catching a free fall suspended by a rope. That's just basic trigonometry and physics.

A 20in fall on static rope with the support point directly above your center of mass (let's use your example and say falling from about even with the support to start for a fall-factor 1) can generate around 2200 lbs (~10kn) force (e.g. https://ferforge.tripod.com/Srt002.htm)

If that same 20 in fall on a lineman's belt the force ends up a lot less.

20 in is NOT a short fall on a static tether. It's a big deal regardless of how the tether's attached - it took literal back-breaking force to do that damage.
Fl Canopy Stalker said:
Also you can still fall using a tree squeeze as well because it has to cinch tightly before it catches you. Can you go to the ground? Most likely not. But it increases the distance you are able to fall
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No one's saying you can't.
Fl Canopy Stalker said:
Also the load is not less on a lineman’s belt. That’s false. The load is simply split between 2 points of connection. There is no guarantee that split will be 50/50 or even 60/40. Therefore all lanyards should have the same breaking strength as your tether connection. IE a minimum of 10 times your body weight since this is life support
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10 times your weight breaking strength doesn't mean crap. The practical implication of the load being split is more that it keeps your body oriented in a manner that's likely to produce less force and/or redirects force into twisting you back into alignment. This extends the time period that you encounter the force and ends up reducing the peak you experience.

In short, the geometry of how a lineman's belt connects to a tree makes a fall on one MUCH less static (and more foregiving, although obviously you don't want to fall) than a fall on a tether (or the tested outcome) can be.

(and if we want to bring safety standards into this, OSHA only allowed 900 lbs load when falling on a belt when they allowed it...)
 
mattsteg said:
Swinging you in and pinching you produces dramatically less load than catching a free fall suspended by a rope. That's just basic trigonometry and physics.

A 20in fall on static rope with the support point directly above your center of mass (let's use your example and say falling from about even with the support to start for a fall-factor 1) can generate around 2200 lbs (~10kn) force (e.g. https://ferforge.tripod.com/Srt002.htm)

If that same 20 in fall on a lineman's belt the force ends up a lot less.

20 in is NOT a short fall on a static tether. It's a big deal regardless of how the tether's attached - it took literal back-breaking force to do that damage.

No one's saying you can't.
10 times your weight breaking strength doesn't mean crap. The practical implication of the load being split is more that it keeps your body oriented in a manner that's likely to produce less force and/or redirects force into twisting you back into alignment. This extends the time period that you encounter the force and ends up reducing the peak you experience.

In short, the geometry of how a lineman's belt connects to a tree makes a fall on one MUCH less static (and more foregiving, although obviously you don't want to fall) than a fall on a tether (or the tested outcome) can be.

(and if we want to bring safety standards into this, OSHA only allowed 900 lbs load when falling on a belt when they allowed it...)
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First the “swing you in and pinch you” ONLY applies if your lineman’s rope is completely tensioned and above your hips with you leaned out in a proper 25 degree to 30 degree angle. That still doesn’t mean there is no chance of shock load. If you are straighter than that or if your connection point is parallel to your waist or lower, or if it contains any slack at all then you will not swing in, you will go straight down the tree until a branch or climbing stick or something arrests that fall. 20” is a long fall in a tether but not an unrealistic fall on a lineman’s rope.
You’re correct osha only allows 18” of fall distance and less than 900 lbs of force (still a standard for work positioning harnesses) however body belts for a fall arrests system is not allowable. The two standards are very different. A fall on your lineman’s rope (aka positioning lanyard) is not less static than a fall on your lanyard because the tether attaches to a bridge which attaches to loops which then direct the load across the entire saddle chassis not just the connection point the way lineman’s loops do. I’d be happy to show you the same 42” fall (yes it’s extreme but the fall distances are similar regardless) on each and you can see the impact forces are not different however, how the saddle reacts during impact is very different. Again this is why lineman’s belts and arborist harnesses with separate lineman’s connections must have 5000 lbs metal d rings at all connection points, not just the bridge points, if a harness has lineman’s connection point it requires the same breaking strength as any other connection point for life safety. If the forces were thought to be even every time or if the fall was somehow considered less static or less dangerous, the standards for lanyards and metal hardware for lineman’s belts would be different. They aren’t and it’s for that reason. You do have some valid points and I’m not trying to start an online argument with you but I spent years climbing poles for a power company. And because I started selling saddles, I have also been to one of the TMA approved third party test sites and seen the drops, the results, and the measured forces first hand.
 
Fl Canopy Stalker said:
First the “swing you in and pinch you” ONLY applies if your lineman’s rope is completely tensioned and above your hips with you leaned out in a proper 25 degree to 30 degree angle.
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No, it applies any time you're not in the tree or climbing an absolutely hellacious leaner.
Fl Canopy Stalker said:
That still doesn’t mean there is no chance of shock load.
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No one's saying that's the case, although by far the larger hazard is falling on things or the belt just not catching.

Fl Canopy Stalker said:
You’re correct osha only allows 18” of fall distance and less than 900 lbs of force (still a standard for work positioning harnesses) however body belts for a fall arrests system is not allowable.
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Honestly you're just making things up now plus not comprehending what I wrote. They allowed 900 pounds for body belts when they were OK 25+ years ago. They allow double that for a body harness.

Fl Canopy Stalker said:
Again this is why lineman’s belts and arborist harnesses with separate lineman’s connections must have 5000 lbs metal d rings at all connection points, not just the bridge points, if a harness has lineman’s connection point it requires the same breaking strength as any other connection point for life safety. If the forces were thought to be even every time or if the fall was somehow considered less static or less dangerous, the standards for lanyards and metal hardware for lineman’s belts would be different.
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No they wouldn't, for the simple reason that simplicity and uniformity equals safety.
Fl Canopy Stalker said:
You do have some valid points and I’m not trying to start an online argument with you but I spent years climbing poles for a power company. And because I started selling saddles, I have also been to one of the TMA approved third party test sites and seen the drops, the results, and the measured forces first hand.
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TMA is just CYA for manufacturers, and years climbing poles honestly doesn't mean much or anything other than that you've been trained/indoctrinated into that world. What you've been trained and indoctrinated into is "safe", but not necessarily accurate.
Fl Canopy Stalker said:
I’d be happy to show you the same 42” fall (yes it’s extreme but the fall distances are similar regardless) on each
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Please do. If you have the data at the ready why on earth are you witholding it and talking at us instead?
 
mattsteg said:
No, it applies any time you're not in the tree or climbing an absolutely hellacious leaner.

No one's saying that's the case, although by far the larger hazard is falling on things or the belt just not catching.


Honestly you're just making things up now plus not comprehending what I wrote. They allowed 900 pounds for body belts when they were OK 25+ years ago. They allow double that for a body harness.


No they wouldn't, for the simple reason that simplicity and uniformity equals safety.

TMA is just CYA for manufacturers, and years climbing poles honestly doesn't mean much or anything other than that you've been trained/indoctrinated into that world. What you've been trained and indoctrinated into is "safe", but not necessarily accurate.

Please do. If you have the data at the ready why on earth are you witholding it and talking at us instead?
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Who is withholding anything? All of our drops are posted on you tube and very easy to find including the lineman’s loop drops. That fall factor calculator you posted is great. We’ve all sited fall force calculators in other posts. But even in your calculation of 2200 lbs, if that were on a positioning lanyard the 2200 would be split between the two points of contact. So the ropeman on one side would see 1100 lbs of that force which is enough to desheath the rope.
You obviously don’t understand how a fall on a lineman’s rope works if you think any fall will just swing you into the tree and reduce your fall force while slipping. I’m sorry but that’s just not how it works.
Anyway I’m not here to argue with you. And I shared this post because it was relevant because of a ropeman talk we were all having the other day on here. Thank you for sharing your opinion on lineman’s ropes.
 
Fl Canopy Stalker said:
I know a guy :sweatsmile:
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Ive been away for awhile and just came back....after seeing this thread,, it feels awesome to see that i made the right call in swapping from a ropeman 1 to friction hitches. Any chance you could do a 200/ 300 lb test for me and my new style girth hitch knot at the test facility? Will pm you the details.
 
Samcirrus said:
Ive been away for awhile and just came back....after seeing this thread,, it feels awesome to see that i made the right call in swapping from a ropeman 1 to friction hitches. Any chance you could do a 200/ 300 lb test for me and my new style girth hitch knot at the test facility? Will pm you the details.
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I would be happy to do so. I just watched your videos and I think that is a great metal free idea
 
Man I wish I had the time and money to set up a "saddle hunters breaking stuff" YouTube channel. the how not to (highline) crew has covered a lot of clbing/slackline gear that overlaps with what we use already but I'd love to videotape destruction testing on sticks and saddles and such. Informative and fun.
 
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