Saddle and rock climbing harness

[Torvic]

Not sure about present day saddles but there is a Aero Hunter for sale in the classified section!

Are the leg loops rated?

 

[chrisbolton]

@mattsteg from a logic perspective, when you say "never", all I have to do is show a single failure where it has happened to prove you wrong.

The main point with the double protection is that my life is more important than anything else.

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[MaxJac]

I don't feel it is about who's right and who's doing something wrong here. Of all things, we should keep an open mind and validate if a fellow saddle hunter has a safety concern and is sharing it with the community. It would be bad if one of us has an accident for what ever reason and another member let all of us know after the fact that he/she is already using a safer system for years, but did not feel comfortable sharing because of possible bashing...

It's probably like with many things in life. If one thinks about it, it is probably a good time to act on it!

 

[mattsteg]

@mattsteg from a logic perspective, when you say "never", all I have to do is show a single failure where it has happened to prove you wrong.

The main point with the double protection is that my life is more important than anything else.

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I'm a bit confused here as I have not used the word "never" in this thread. So I'm not sure what you're even talking about.

I agree that safety is paramount, but at some point you can actually start to increase risk either via complexity or via complacency (depending on backups instead of sound process)

For example, maybe you turn to shoot, and the extra loop in your personal anchor catches the release loop on your duck, causing it to release?

The largest hazard for falling is while climbing and when you transition between climbing and your at-height tether. Anything that complicates the transfer from climbing to tether, or adds to your task-loading at that point, is potentially hazardous.


Depending on your routine at-height, it may be safer to just clip on to your 1 tether twice (minimizing the amount of motion/work setting up tethers before you are double-clipped) than it is setting up 2 tethers, especially if you set up one, get situated, and then add the second.

In general I'm as safety-militant as most anyone around here, but have a very strong belief in understanding the risks you are guarding against. The ropes that we use have long and very well established records for safety in more demanding applications (e.g. canyoning) than saddle hunting. It's the getting up and down where things can go sideways.

 

[Recurveaholic]

Are the leg loops rated?

They should be but you need to check with the guy selling it cause some people cut them off!

 

[bj139]

That looks like more clutter than Ole @bj139 s set up haha

All this clutter? I only have a single bridge in this photo, my most vulnerable failure point. I have since added another bridge for even more clutter as shown below.. Fall out of the tree if you want. I'm doing everything reasonably possible to make sure I don't. If somebody wants to wear three RCHs I am not going to tell them they can't

 

[bj139]

I posted this page before from a rock climbing book from the 90s. The waist belt that cannot go over your hips is what will save you from falling and everything else is only for comfort.

 

[bj139]

A couple of points to that:
1) What's not cumbersome in a JX3, may well be cumbersome in another saddle.
2) While a stand may fail, a well-maintained saddle will not. Tree Stands are required to hit a safety factor of 2 - i.e. if it's rated to 300 pounds, load it up with 600 pounds of weight and if it holds it it passes. A saddle is rated for several multiples of that (to withstand a fall that's stronger than your body). Your tether is rated for ~10x that load (and would kill you before snapping).

What's going to cause an issue and where smart redundancy helps, is in the human factor. Your equipment isn't going to break, but you might screw up clipping in a carabiner in the dark, or tie a crappy hitch, or whatever. The way I see it - you don't necessarily overcome that by adding a bunch of extra equipment to haul around (depending on how you manage this it can make you less safe - for example if you don't clip in your backup until you're situated...it's doing nothing but making you remember 1 extra thing)


If you set up your tether, then take off your lineman's belt and reconfigure it as a second tether, that's fine but not adding safety.
If you remove it to reconfigure as a lineman's belt before unhooking your tether, again fine, but not really adding anything.

The real risk is when you disconnect that lineman's belt and transfer to your tether, even for a moment. You'd get more safety by clipping the tail of the tether to your saddle, before finishing setting up your tether.

In short - consider what is likely to fail, and what you're comfortable considering as "bombproof", and structure your backups accordingly.

Try having only your linesman's belt connected and kick your stick out from under you and come back and tell us how safe it was.

 

[mattsteg]

Try having only your linesman's belt connected and kick your stick out from under you and come back and tell us how safe it was.

1) I don't really use sticks.
2) I explicitly listed the climb and transfer as a time where there is a hazard
3) none of these excessively redundant systems address this (very real) hazard

 

[bj139]

1) I don't really use sticks.
2) I explicitly listed the climb and transfer as a time where there is a hazard
3) none of these excessively redundant systems address this (very real) hazard

The linesman's belt is not a fall restraint system at all. It always bothered me relying on it while climbing sticks. I climb SRT 99% of the time just to avoid such risks.

 

[mattsteg]

The linesman's belt is not a fall restraint system at all. It always bothered me relying on it while climbing sticks. I climb SRT 99% of the time just to avoid such risks.

It's a reasonable approximation of a fall restraint climbing with individual steps (you are closer to the tree, and the individual steps act as stops to catch the rope should you slip). With sticks much less consistently so.

One can always use a bucksqueeze or tether in (keep the slack out) for more safety. Still have that big ol stick to fall into though.

 

[neonomad]

A couple of points to that:
1) What's not cumbersome in a JX3, may well be cumbersome in another saddle.
2) While a stand may fail, a well-maintained saddle will not. Tree Stands are required to hit a safety factor of 2 - i.e. if it's rated to 300 pounds, load it up with 600 pounds of weight and if it holds it it passes. A saddle is rated for several multiples of that (to withstand a fall that's stronger than your body). Your tether is rated for ~10x that load (and would kill you before snapping).

What's going to cause an issue and where smart redundancy helps, is in the human factor. Your equipment isn't going to break, but you might screw up clipping in a carabiner in the dark, or tie a crappy hitch, or whatever. The way I see it - you don't necessarily overcome that by adding a bunch of extra equipment to haul around (depending on how you manage this it can make you less safe - for example if you don't clip in your backup until you're situated...it's doing nothing but making you remember 1 extra thing)


If you set up your tether, then take off your lineman's belt and reconfigure it as a second tether, that's fine but not adding safety.
If you remove it to reconfigure as a lineman's belt before unhooking your tether, again fine, but not really adding anything.

The real risk is when you disconnect that lineman's belt and transfer to your tether, even for a moment. You'd get more safety by clipping the tail of the tether to your saddle, before finishing setting up your tether.

In short - consider what is likely to fail, and what you're comfortable considering as "bombproof", and structure your backups accordingly.

Pretty much agree with you, and if I was handed a pile of reports on accidents for any method I’d expect most to be human error, and the risks introduced shouldn’t be ignored, forget about the load specs of a saddle, agree far smaller risk of anything going wrong there. But also for example, maybe I didn’t notice a carabiner smack the concrete, maybe I didn’t notice a prussic knot loosening up. Im also a little anxious about height, just feel a lot more relaxed with a second rope holding me to the tree. The part of the process I’m most cautious about though is the climb... I never want to drop down onto a stick with calf, quad, abdomen etc. I still think a climber is safer than saddle hunting (assuming you have a plan to deal with an incident and descend), but I still put most of my time in a saddle (almost, the jx3).

 

[bj139]

It's a reasonable approximation of a fall restraint climbing with individual steps (you are closer to the tree, and the individual steps act as stops to catch the rope should you slip). With sticks much less consistently so.

One can always use a bucksqueeze or tether in (keep the slack out) for more safety. Still have that big ol stick to fall into though.

I don't know which would be worse, falling onto the top of a stick or falling to the ground. I guess it depends on how high and what other things could impale me at the stop.

 

[Shakeandbake]

A couple of points to that:
1) What's not cumbersome in a JX3, may well be cumbersome in another saddle.
2) While a stand may fail, a well-maintained saddle will not. Tree Stands are required to hit a safety factor of 2 - i.e. if it's rated to 300 pounds, load it up with 600 pounds of weight and if it holds it it passes. A saddle is rated for several multiples of that (to withstand a fall that's stronger than your body). Your tether is rated for ~10x that load (and would kill you before snapping).

What's going to cause an issue and where smart redundancy helps, is in the human factor. Your equipment isn't going to break, but you might screw up clipping in a carabiner in the dark, or tie a crappy hitch, or whatever. The way I see it - you don't necessarily overcome that by adding a bunch of extra equipment to haul around (depending on how you manage this it can make you less safe - for example if you don't clip in your backup until you're situated...it's doing nothing but making you remember 1 extra thing)


If you set up your tether, then take off your lineman's belt and reconfigure it as a second tether, that's fine but not adding safety.
If you remove it to reconfigure as a lineman's belt before unhooking your tether, again fine, but not really adding anything.

The real risk is when you disconnect that lineman's belt and transfer to your tether, even for a moment. You'd get more safety by clipping the tail of the tether to your saddle, before finishing setting up your tether.

In short - consider what is likely to fail, and what you're comfortable considering as "bombproof", and structure your backups accordingly.

Your missing his point of first and last line of defense in a fall. Your already in a position and angle for a long fall if anything within the saddle and tether were to malfunction. We all know a saddle is safer than a tree stand but your essentially hanging on your last line of defense. Now if he hunts with a lineman’s belt around a tree, now he safer than a tree stand set up.


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[Ontariofarmer]

.
Our systems are safe but not fail proof. Excessive backups complicate things and are more likely to lead to user error.
The most dangerous part is climbing the tree.
Slack tethers, stick or aider kick outs. Impaling your leg with a spur. A bolt pulling out and a slip with a lineman’s belt and being caught by the next bolt. A carabiner not hooked up properly or side loaded-is dangerous
If you want a 100 % fail proof safe system. Stay home and eat potato chips on the coach. Oh you might die of heart disease instead.

Slow down check stuff twice or three times and test your equipment.
Look for wear. Throw stuff out that shows signs of wear
One stick with a lineman’s belt too.
Have fun and slow down. Needs to be said again. Slow down.
Why did John E make a few mistakes in a video. Distractions? Perhaps complacency? These are the dangerous things. Hey John. I have done the same things. But it is a good example of our real dangers
Oh and don’t climb dead trees especially in high winds. Easy to do in the dark when the leaves are off the tree

Keep it simple stupid.
Life is not without risk, my backup is eternal

Not trying to be sarcastic just realistic and sensible


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[mattsteg]

Your missing his point of first and last line of defense in a fall. Your already in a position and angle for a long fall if anything within the saddle and tether were to malfunction. We all know a saddle is safer than a tree stand but your essentially hanging on your last line of defense. Now if he hunts with a lineman’s belt around a tree, now he safer than a tree stand set up.


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Every time we get on a plane, supported by our last line of defense (say the wings). They're designed and properly maintained, so that they more or less will not fail. The plane itself has ****loads of redundant and backup systems, but you don't see anyone slapping on a second set of wings these days. Redundancy is used where it matters.

Your tether isn't going to break. A reliable, well-inspected knot like a fig 8 on a bight with a good tail and a backup...isn't going to come undone. A properly rated and inspected saddle isn't going to break. These are used all of the time as single points of failure for e.g. rock climbing and arborist work! Also the tree is a single point of failure!

If something bad happens, it'll be during the climb, or during the transition between climbing/hanging. If you climb with a lineman's belt, set up your tether, and then remove the lineman's belt to rerig as a second tether...this isn't any safer (and can actually be more dangerous depending on your order of operations and how you manage the extra complexity).

Failures that are likely to happen or have happened are things like
misclipping a carabiner
screwing up knots - in particular water knots on a webbing bridge need big tails and inspection before every use
standing up on your platform and putting slack in your tether, then falling

You're safer (and more streamlined) just carrying a slightly longer tether and clipping the tail end (whether you knot the rope, or roll with a second prusik directly to a rated loop on your saddle. That gives you redundancy over you doing something stupid like misclipping or not checking your knots, and it gives you that safety during the most dangerous part of the process - when you first "trust" your tether hookup as you transition onto it.

 

[dlist777]

Right now, I am using a sitdrag with a rock climbing harness. Does anyone pair a saddle (tethrd, Cruzr, etc) with a rock climbing harness?

I wear a very lightweight RC harness under my JX-3. As I climb, I connect a 2nd tether (8mm Oplux) to my RC harness belay loop and use lineman's belt on JX-3 lineman's loops). I move the 2nd tether up as I climb. When I get to height I attach my primary tether to the JX-3 and remove the LB. I keep the 2nd tether attached to my RC harness.

This way I have a fully redundant backup system for every part of JX-3, every connection point from the moment I leave the ground. I'm also covered for human error I could make connecting the JX-3 to the primary tether and / or LB. Mostly I'm concerned about human error; not equipment failure. That is, I fail to replace a fraying rope, fail to hook up properly in the dark, leave caribiner unlocked....etc

The whole set up adds less than 2 lbs.

 

[mattsteg]

I wear a very lightweight RC harness under my JX-3. As I climb, I connect a 2nd tether (8mm Oplux) to my RC harness belay loops and use lineman's belt on JX-3 lineman's loops). I move the 2nd tether up as I climb. When I get to height I attach my primary tether to the JX-3 and remove the LB. I keep the 2nd tether attached to my RC harness.

This way I have a fully redundant backup system for every part of JX-3, every connection point from the moment I leave the ground. I'm also covered for human error I could make connecting the JX-3 to the primary tether and / or LB. Mostly I'm concerned about human error; not equipment failure. That is, I fail to replace a fraying rope, fail to hook up properly in the dark, leave caribiner unlocked....etc

The whole set up adds less than 2 lbs.

That's redundancy done right. It may not be my personal choice, but it's clearly a streamlined system set up in such a way that it backs you up when and how it matters.

 

[Ontariofarmer]

I wear a very lightweight RC harness under my JX-3. As I climb, I connect a 2nd tether (8mm Oplux) to my RC harness belay loop and use lineman's belt on JX-3 lineman's loops). I move the 2nd tether up as I climb. When I get to height I attach my primary tether to the JX-3 and remove the LB. I keep the 2nd tether attached to my RC harness.

This way I have a fully redundant backup system for every part of JX-3, every connection point from the moment I leave the ground. I'm also covered for human error I could make connecting the JX-3 to the primary tether and / or LB. Mostly I'm concerned about human error; not equipment failure. That is, I fail to replace a fraying rope, fail to hook up properly in the dark, leave caribiner unlocked....etc

The whole set up adds less than 2 lbs.

Your covered. I am happy without a backup. But I have checked and double check everything as I climb


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