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Somewhat successful/hit the deer. Never found.

kyler1945

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Dec 4, 2016
Messages
3,966
Location
Baton Rouge, La.
The irony of your username is not lost on me...

sorry you lost your buck. If you hit behind the shoulder, and in front of the last rib, and exited anywhere in the same area on off side, with a razor sharp head, he’s dead. If you hit where you say you did with a razor sharp head, at that distance and angle, he’s most likely dead within 100 yards.

While anything is possible in the deer woods, you can rest assured you either didn’t hit where you thought, or the angle wasn’t what you thought, or the arrow deflected, or it wasn’t sharp going through him. This is making the assumption the 6 grid searchers weren’t blind!

maybe buzzards or trail cams Will get some closure for you.

I tend to agree that the spirit of the successful hunts forum probably isn’t this. But here we are. I’ll give you a pass if you can share 3 things you learned on this hunt, that might help someone else!
 

bj139

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Joined
Jun 13, 2019
Messages
5,220
Location
SE PA
Sorry you didn't find your buck. I posted about my shot at a deer a month ago and got lambbasted here by many people. It taught me to only post absolutely successful incidents if I want no criticism. Of course, the people criticizing you will never post about a deer they lost. You will lose a few, if you shoot enough of them. It was not your fault.
 

Backlash27

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Oct 11, 2020
Messages
34
Location
Angleton, Texas
The irony of your username is not lost on me...

sorry you lost your buck. If you hit behind the shoulder, and in front of the last rib, and exited anywhere in the same area on off side, with a razor sharp head, he’s dead. If you hit where you say you did with a razor sharp head, at that distance and angle, he’s most likely dead within 100 yards.

While anything is possible in the deer woods, you can rest assured you either didn’t hit where you thought, or the angle wasn’t what you thought, or the arrow deflected, or it wasn’t sharp going through him. This is making the assumption the 6 grid searchers weren’t blind!

maybe buzzards or trail cams Will get some closure for you.

I tend to agree that the spirit of the successful hunts forum probably isn’t this. But here we are. I’ll give you a pass if you can share 3 things you learned on this hunt, that might help someone else!
1) never assume anything. When I watched the shot, heard the pop. I assumed he was dead within 100 as you say. I decided to wait an hour just to be sure but then the rain started. Now, as I’ve told my mentors and hunting buddies. I would take that shot 100 times. No regrets for shooting the shot. But something happened that I can’t know for sure unless we eventually find him or get pictures and that is where it exited.
2) knowing exactly where your arrow hit is super important. I know it went in behind the shoulder. But I can’t tell you vertical where it was.The one thing I would change is some sort of illuminated nock.
3) keep your head up. Losing this deer was the hardest thing I’ve ever experienced hunting. I’ve hunted hard for over 5 years looking for a mature buck. Passed two bucks in that time frame that were iffy shots that my buddies gave me hell for not taking. I didn’t want to hunt anymore. I didn’t sleep at night thinking about what went wrong.
Wanted to just give up. Made myself get back in the stand and put in the time. Shot a doe yesterday at 17 yards. Exact same situation. Ran 40 yards and fell over dead.
 

Tjraley2

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SH Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2018
Messages
682
Location
Stoughton, WI
The irony of your username is not lost on me...

sorry you lost your buck. If you hit behind the shoulder, and in front of the last rib, and exited anywhere in the same area on off side, with a razor sharp head, he’s dead. If you hit where you say you did with a razor sharp head, at that distance and angle, he’s most likely dead within 100 yards.

While anything is possible in the deer woods, you can rest assured you either didn’t hit where you thought, or the angle wasn’t what you thought, or the arrow deflected, or it wasn’t sharp going through him. This is making the assumption the 6 grid searchers weren’t blind!

maybe buzzards or trail cams Will get some closure for you.

I tend to agree that the spirit of the successful hunts forum probably isn’t this. But here we are. I’ll give you a pass if you can share 3 things you learned on this hunt, that might help someone else!
THIS is why I make sure to read everything you post. You remain firm on your thoughts but are charitable and bring it around to what matters most on this forum: learning, and sharing what we learn to help others.
 

swampdonkey

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 25, 2019
Messages
256
Location
Wisconsin
Update: we never found the deer. Used a dog as well.
IMO you’ve exhausted all options and did the best you could to recover.

I think he is alive if the dog couldn’t find him but even if he isn’t you’ve done all you can do. I’d reckon all of us have lost at least one deer in our hunting careers.

It’s unfortunate but it happens.
 

neonomad

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Joined
Sep 4, 2019
Messages
514
1) never assume anything. When I watched the shot, heard the pop. I assumed he was dead within 100 as you say. I decided to wait an hour just to be sure but then the rain started. Now, as I’ve told my mentors and hunting buddies. I would take that shot 100 times. No regrets for shooting the shot. But something happened that I can’t know for sure unless we eventually find him or get pictures and that is where it exited.
2) knowing exactly where your arrow hit is super important. I know it went in behind the shoulder. But I can’t tell you vertical where it was.The one thing I would change is some sort of illuminated nock.
3) keep your head up. Losing this deer was the hardest thing I’ve ever experienced hunting. I’ve hunted hard for over 5 years looking for a mature buck. Passed two bucks in that time frame that were iffy shots that my buddies gave me hell for not taking. I didn’t want to hunt anymore. I didn’t sleep at night thinking about what went wrong.
Wanted to just give up. Made myself get back in the stand and put in the time. Shot a doe yesterday at 17 yards. Exact same situation. Ran 40 yards and fell over dead.
Illuminated nocks are highly informative.
 

kyler1945

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SH Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2016
Messages
3,966
Location
Baton Rouge, La.
Illuminated nocks are highly informative.
they also generate considerable radial forces on your arrow if impact isn’t 100% perpendicular to the target. And these forces will greatly reduce penetration potential. How much that matters is shot specific. But one can watch a trend of self filming YouTube hunting prevalence increasing, and lighted(read - higher mass) nock use. And as these increase, it’s hard not to notice a similar increase in deer running off with more than half an arrow sticking out.

I have had a couple anecdotal experiences myself. The tradeoff isn’t worth it to me.

Im not saying don’t use them, just offering what’s at stake to folks who think it might be all upside.
 

Tjraley2

Well-Known Member
SH Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2018
Messages
682
Location
Stoughton, WI
they also generate considerable radial forces on your arrow if impact isn’t 100% perpendicular to the target. And these forces will greatly reduce penetration potential. How much that matters is shot specific. But one can watch a trend of self filming YouTube hunting prevalence increasing, and lighted(read - higher mass) nock use. And as these increase, it’s hard not to notice a similar increase in deer running off with more than half an arrow sticking out.

I have had a couple anecdotal experiences myself. The tradeoff isn’t worth it to me.

Im not saying don’t use them, just offering what’s at stake to folks who think it might be all upside.
Not to totally derail the thread, but does a high FOC arrow with a cut on contact broadhead mitigate some of the impact of a lighted nock?
 

bj139

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Joined
Jun 13, 2019
Messages
5,220
Location
SE PA
Illuminated nocks are highly informative.
I wish I had an illuminated nock when I shot at a deer at twilight this year. It would have told me if I actually had a deflected arrow, I think.
 
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raisins

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SH Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2019
Messages
2,413
they also generate considerable radial forces on your arrow if impact isn’t 100% perpendicular to the target. And these forces will greatly reduce penetration potential. How much that matters is shot specific. But one can watch a trend of self filming YouTube hunting prevalence increasing, and lighted(read - higher mass) nock use. And as these increase, it’s hard not to notice a similar increase in deer running off with more than half an arrow sticking out.

I have had a couple anecdotal experiences myself. The tradeoff isn’t worth it to me.

Im not saying don’t use them, just offering what’s at stake to folks who think it might be all upside.
Agreed. I would love to use them, but I just can't because of this and also people worry about insert/broadhead alignment but sometimes neglect nock alignment (some say nock alignment is more critical than point alignment). I square the back of my arrow and use a high quality insert and pin nock that have high weight and straightness tolerances.

Once you start a deflection, then the arrow will whip in the target and the more rear mass the worse. This can be due to poor tuning, poor form, hitting a branch, or deflection caused by hitting ribs/etc inside the deer.

Someone could make some money if they figured out how to place a battery and light inside the arrow right behind the front insert but in a way where you can change the battery and turn it off (turning off might be done with a hard side slap or something or drop on its rear). The light shines inside the shaft and then hits the nock. The nock is clear and acts like a fiber optic and emits the light in a cone that will hit the archer's eye. This would create FOC and lighted nock at the same time.

Edit: Lithium ion battery behind insert, and you recharge by placing on a wireless recharging mat. Lithium battery and LED technology have come a long way. Someone could probably get this setup at 50 lumens or something.
 
Last edited:

kyler1945

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Joined
Dec 4, 2016
Messages
3,966
Location
Baton Rouge, La.
1) never assume anything. When I watched the shot, heard the pop. I assumed he was dead within 100 as you say. I decided to wait an hour just to be sure but then the rain started. Now, as I’ve told my mentors and hunting buddies. I would take that shot 100 times. No regrets for shooting the shot. But something happened that I can’t know for sure unless we eventually find him or get pictures and that is where it exited.
2) knowing exactly where your arrow hit is super important. I know it went in behind the shoulder. But I can’t tell you vertical where it was.The one thing I would change is some sort of illuminated nock.
3) keep your head up. Losing this deer was the hardest thing I’ve ever experienced hunting. I’ve hunted hard for over 5 years looking for a mature buck. Passed two bucks in that time frame that were iffy shots that my buddies gave me hell for not taking. I didn’t want to hunt anymore. I didn’t sleep at night thinking about what went wrong.
Wanted to just give up. Made myself get back in the stand and put in the time. Shot a doe yesterday at 17 yards. Exact same situation. Ran 40 yards and fell over dead.
Excellent information!

I ask the same questions generally when someone posts “is he dead” or “help me find my deer.”

some of this stuff might not be of use or knowable anymore, but could be useful to someone...

where on the grid did you hit the deer?

5E2E7A61-76CD-43FD-8D3A-9A33B0A66C55.jpeg


what was the angle the deer was standing? Broadside/ quartering, etc.

was the deer’s leg on shot side forward, back, or perfectly straight? In other words you said he stopped, they hardly ever stop with that leg perfectly straight naturally. Usually happens when they’re alerted.

how high above deer were you?

shot Distance?

was the arrow stuck in the ground in line with your shot, or at a different angle left/right and Up/down from your shot?

you will almost always be able to locate hair at the shot site. What did the hair look like?. I recommend cutting some hairs from a big buck next time a buddy cleans one. Pull them from back, sides, belly, brisket, etc. take pictures and save them in your phone for reference next time it happens.

can you reference shot angle, to the deer’s tracks where he dug in to bolt? This should confirm if you were right on the angle he was standing. I can’t recall a deer yet I haven’t been able to do this when needed. It takes work and being careful; but it could be helpful in determining if your eyes and brain deceived you.

Arrow speed/weight?

broadhead?

did the deer run full speed away or react quickly and bound off then walk, trot, etc?

how far were you able to watch the deer go before you lost sight or sound?

was it’s tail up or down?

were you able to see blood/red on the side of the deer as it ran?

how many minutes before/after sunset did you shoot?

you said it started pouring shortly after you shot. Did the rain pop up on you or did you anticipate it coming? (I’m not judging, I hunt in the rain sometimes. It’s just information)

did your broadhead show any major damage? Bent or curled tip, bent or curled blades, nicks or chips out of the blades.

can the broadhead shave hair on your arm now, after passing through the deer?


Again - some of this you won’t know or be able to now. But they’re useful details for coloring your story, and maybe one or two of these questions helps you or someone new next time.
 

Allegheny Tom

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Joined
Feb 4, 2018
Messages
4,487
Location
Western Pennsylvania
Not to totally derail the thread, but does a high FOC arrow with a cut on contact broadhead mitigate some of the impact of a lighted nock?
Nock weight, or fletching weight, or wraps all effect FOC. The more weight we add to the back end of the arrow, the lower the FOC % will be (and more nock weight also makes the dynamic spine stiffer).
There is a very interesting demonstration by Ashby where he shows the dramatic effect on FOC by just adding the weight of a paperclip to the nock end. It's eye opening.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk
 

neonomad

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 4, 2019
Messages
514
they also generate considerable radial forces on your arrow if impact isn’t 100% perpendicular to the target. And these forces will greatly reduce penetration potential. How much that matters is shot specific. But one can watch a trend of self filming YouTube hunting prevalence increasing, and lighted(read - higher mass) nock use. And as these increase, it’s hard not to notice a similar increase in deer running off with more than half an arrow sticking out.

I have had a couple anecdotal experiences myself. The tradeoff isn’t worth it to me.

Im not saying don’t use them, just offering what’s at stake to folks who think it might be all upside.
I’d have to think while squinting for awhile about this, but would be a similar issue with wraps too as well, correct? Although maybe the COG of that is a bit farther forward. Have you seen any hard evidence or research that helps define what kind of “greatly reduce” we’re taking about here? right now I lean toward the benefits outweighing the cons but interested to better understand the whip.
 

Bowmanmike

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SH Member
Joined
Dec 15, 2019
Messages
925
1) never assume anything. When I watched the shot, heard the pop. I assumed he was dead within 100 as you say. I decided to wait an hour just to be sure but then the rain started. Now, as I’ve told my mentors and hunting buddies. I would take that shot 100 times. No regrets for shooting the shot. But something happened that I can’t know for sure unless we eventually find him or get pictures and that is where it exited.
2) knowing exactly where your arrow hit is super important. I know it went in behind the shoulder. But I can’t tell you vertical where it was.The one thing I would change is some sort of illuminated nock.
3) keep your head up. Losing this deer was the hardest thing I’ve ever experienced hunting. I’ve hunted hard for over 5 years looking for a mature buck. Passed two bucks in that time frame that were iffy shots that my buddies gave me hell for not taking. I didn’t want to hunt anymore. I didn’t sleep at night thinking about what went wrong.
Wanted to just give up. Made myself get back in the stand and put in the time. Shot a doe yesterday at 17 yards. Exact same situation. Ran 40 yards and fell over dead.
Lighted nocks made a big difference for me. I was disappointed in not knowing where i hit,there is so much information there that i never got. Now it is the opposite. The arrow doesnt tell the whole story,every piece of information you get after the shot is important.
Learn what you can from any hit or miss on a deer. If you dont learn it is a wasted opportunity.
For me the lighted nock benefits outweigh the lower FOC. Pun intended.
 
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raisins

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Jan 17, 2019
Messages
2,413
I’d have to think while squinting for awhile about this, but would be a similar issue with wraps too as well, correct? Although maybe the COG of that is a bit farther forward. Have you seen any hard evidence or research that helps define what kind of “greatly reduce” we’re taking about here? right now I lean toward the benefits outweighing the cons but interested to better understand the whip.
Wrap and fletchings all do this, but wraps weigh a lot less than a lighted nock. Onestringer wraps that are the minimum length to cover under fletchings is what I use and they are very light.
 

neonomad

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Joined
Sep 4, 2019
Messages
514
Wrap and fletchings all do this, but wraps weigh a lot less than a lighted nock. Onestringer wraps that are the minimum length to cover under fletchings is what I use and they are very light.
I bet you could just shoot a bunch of arrows at a target and get a sense if it seems to matter much... torque the grip a little etc, shoot different angles. Compare penetration lighted vs conventional nock. My gut says it doesn’t matter much, particularly if you’re shooting higher foc and stiff spines.
 

kyler1945

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Joined
Dec 4, 2016
Messages
3,966
Location
Baton Rouge, La.
I’d have to think while squinting for awhile about this, but would be a similar issue with wraps too as well, correct? Although maybe the COG of that is a bit farther forward. Have you seen any hard evidence or research that helps define what kind of “greatly reduce” we’re taking about here? right now I lean toward the benefits outweighing the cons but interested to better understand the whip.
on my 29” arrows, FOC would be reduced from 18.5% to 17%. Or, put more usefully, weight FOC is reduced by about 8%.

if you shoot an already high integrity, heavy and high FOC arrow, razor sharp broadhead with high MA out of a perfectly tuned bow with perfect form, at a deer standing broadside, and the only difference is 8% of FOC, my guess is for MOST shots it won’t have a measurable impact on penetration on MOST deer.

if any of the factors above are neglected or changed, my impression is that 8% difference could have a major impact on penetration.

my ability to see how a deer reacts to a shot, experience reading sign at shot site, ability to call a dog, all factor in to a lighted nock not being worth it. I’ll admit a slight bias in that they all suck terribly. Seems like simple technology to perfect.
 

Backlash27

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Oct 11, 2020
Messages
34
Location
Angleton, Texas
Excellent information!

I ask the same questions generally when someone posts “is he dead” or “help me find my deer.”

some of this stuff might not be of use or knowable anymore, but could be useful to someone...

where on the grid did you hit the deer?

View attachment 40720


what was the angle the deer was standing? Broadside/ quartering, etc.

was the deer’s leg on shot side forward, back, or perfectly straight? In other words you said he stopped, they hardly ever stop with that leg perfectly straight naturally. Usually happens when they’re alerted.

how high above deer were you?

shot Distance?

was the arrow stuck in the ground in line with your shot, or at a different angle left/right and Up/down from your shot?

you will almost always be able to locate hair at the shot site. What did the hair look like?. I recommend cutting some hairs from a big buck next time a buddy cleans one. Pull them from back, sides, belly, brisket, etc. take pictures and save them in your phone for reference next time it happens.

can you reference shot angle, to the deer’s tracks where he dug in to bolt? This should confirm if you were right on the angle he was standing. I can’t recall a deer yet I haven’t been able to do this when needed. It takes work and being careful; but it could be helpful in determining if your eyes and brain deceived you.

Arrow speed/weight?

broadhead?

did the deer run full speed away or react quickly and bound off then walk, trot, etc?

how far were you able to watch the deer go before you lost sight or sound?

was it’s tail up or down?

were you able to see blood/red on the side of the deer as it ran?

how many minutes before/after sunset did you shoot?

you said it started pouring shortly after you shot. Did the rain pop up on you or did you anticipate it coming? (I’m not judging, I hunt in the rain sometimes. It’s just information)

did your broadhead show any major damage? Bent or curled tip, bent or curled blades, nicks or chips out of the blades.

can the broadhead shave hair on your arm now, after passing through the deer?


Again - some of this you won’t know or be able to now. But they’re useful details for coloring your story, and maybe one or two of these questions helps you or someone new next time.
so to answer a few of those questions. Maybe y’all have some insight. I hit the deer C4 (I think) the last time I saw the arrow it was dang close to hitting there then I lost it.
Almost perfectly broadside, maybe 10 degrees towards me.
Front leg was forward. He took a step then stopped,
10’ tripod at 23 yards.
The arrow was stuck in the ground about 2-3 inches.
Only hair I could find was normal brown with lighter band in the middle.
Found the tracks where he was standing at the arrow was perfectly perpendicular to his tracks.

unknown speed, decently fast with about 620ish grains (haven’t measured it exactly. This is just rough math) 23% FOC based on the online calculators using arrow measurements and balance point measurement.

Shooting a kudupoint contour. Has worked spectacular on both pig and doe that I shot this year

he bounds off pretty fast after the shot, 50ish yards. Then slows down to a walk. I lost sight about 40-50 yards. Never heard a crash. Followed his tracks about 80 yards until I lost those as well. I can’t remember his tail position but I don’t recall seeing a lot of white.
Didn’t see blood, but he ran straight away from me through thick palmettos. Not a lot of visual.
wasn’t supposdd to rain til 8:30-9. Shot the deer at 6:41.
the broadhead had a small burr that a fingernail would catch on, still sharp, wouldn’t shave after the shot though. Would shave before.
 

kyler1945

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SH Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2016
Messages
3,966
Location
Baton Rouge, La.
so to answer a few of those questions. Maybe y’all have some insight. I hit the deer C4 (I think) the last time I saw the arrow it was dang close to hitting there then I lost it.
Almost perfectly broadside, maybe 10 degrees towards me.
Front leg was forward. He took a step then stopped,
10’ tripod at 23 yards.
The arrow was stuck in the ground about 2-3 inches.
Only hair I could find was normal brown with lighter band in the middle.
Found the tracks where he was standing at the arrow was perfectly perpendicular to his tracks.

unknown speed, decently fast with about 620ish grains (haven’t measured it exactly. This is just rough math) 23% FOC based on the online calculators using arrow measurements and balance point measurement.

Shooting a kudupoint contour. Has worked spectacular on both pig and doe that I shot this year

he bounds off pretty fast after the shot, 50ish yards. Then slows down to a walk. I lost sight about 40-50 yards. Never heard a crash. Followed his tracks about 80 yards until I lost those as well. I can’t remember his tail position but I don’t recall seeing a lot of white.
Didn’t see blood, but he ran straight away from me through thick palmettos. Not a lot of visual.
wasn’t supposdd to rain til 8:30-9. Shot the deer at 6:41.
the broadhead had a small burr that a fingernail would catch on, still sharp, wouldn’t shave after the shot though. Would shave before.
Im assuming east coast? And by gator and in avatar and deer running in palmettos I’m assuming Florida or South Georgia?

I assume you mean 5:41pm? Just in case green pants is cruising the webs...

sounds like you had enough light to be pretty sure on the deer’s position in relation to you. And it sounds like you are very confident in the shot placement.

it’s not great that the head wasn’t shaving sharp after going through the deer, but at least it was going in.

was there fat on the arrow?

did you get to the arrow before the rain? If so, what did the blood on the arrow look like?

did the arrow stink?
 

Backlash27

New Member
SH Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2020
Messages
34
Location
Angleton, Texas
Te
Im assuming east coast? And by gator and in avatar and deer running in palmettos I’m assuming Florida or South Georgia?

I assume you mean 5:41pm? Just in case green pants is cruising the webs...

sounds like you had enough light to be pretty sure on the deer’s position in relation to you. And it sounds like you are very confident in the shot placement.

it’s not great that the head wasn’t shaving sharp after going through the deer, but at least it was going in.

was there fat on the arrow?

did you get to the arrow before the rain? If so, what did the blood on the arrow look like?

did the arrow stink?
texas gulf coast. 6:41 AM. I think shooting light was 6:20 or so.
there was fat. It wiped the arrow pretty clean. The blood on the arrow was lighter red, not pink but not dark.
it didn’t stink, when I saw that he wheeled away I was worried about guts, but it smelled like normal blood.
That’s why after talking with the dog handler and reviewing everything. We think it went in behind the shoulder and maybe came out his front. That would explain the fat.
 
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