"Wasting" Meat

[Hunter260]

EHD to my understanding is "just" a virus. Organisms can develop immunity and even pass that immunity on to their offspring. EHD is also tied to areas with midges (wet) and rainy/dry year cycles. It can hit a herd hard, but it rarely strikes twice in a row and deer develop immunity against subsequent attacks from that strain. Not much you can do to stop it, and no real point since it doesn't seem at all likely to threaten the species.

CWD is, again to my limited understanding, more concerning because of how well the prions survive and spread, and the fact that we're unsure if it's possible to develop immunity. You can kill every animal in a pasture with a prion disease, and a decade later reintroduce animals and have them all die from it all over again. We don't know a lot about it, but what we do know doesn't seem good. So you have fear of the unknown, magnified by the mad cow/crutzfield-jacobs disease species crossover

Prions are scarier because that deer can live and do perfectly normal deer things for 4 years and all the while he actively infecting everyone it meets with CWD. EHD kills the deer fast and kind of burns itself out

 

[DelaWhere_Arrow]

I pretty much agree, but have an additional thought.

Increasingly species are forced into "islands" of habitat. I think it's possible to export biomass from a small parcel to its detriment. I don't know if we harvest enough deer to do this, but the principle is definitely sound. Grow crops on a parcel year after year, ship the harvest off site, don't amend the soil, and while on a global scale the equation doesn't shift, locally it very much does.

The CWD thing is odd. If the state has designated disposal sites, how are the remains ultimately disposed of? It seems to me that leaving it where it lies is a better solution that transporting it. Alabama DCNR seems to agree.

View attachment 76441

Unfortunately, I live just outside the CWD watch zone in my state, which keeps migrating closer every year. I was under the impression that:
1) the contents of those carcass dumpsters get incinerated eventually to a very low form of ash
2) burying, surface depth down to the frost line, is exactly the opposite of what most game departments that are dealing with CWD on an appreciable scale want you to do, because those prions are able to stay in the soil and even leach into the vegetation growing around that site, then by the scat of animals that eat it, etc. kinda like toxoplasmosis is spread largely by cat feces and can stay within soil, vegetation, other carrier animals as a result of leaving infected animals lay.
I know that both states I’ve lived in have strongly discouraged burying infected or suspected carcasses, and it’s actually unlawful to leave any part of any deer harvested within the CWD counties (regardless of infected status per individual animal) because they can carry prions long after death or be carriers without symptoms for a long time. Every single deer in those counties must be sampled by DNR and butchered by an approved butcher who will submit samples (according to a friend and LEO who hunts those counties). I’m not a deer biologist, but it’s all very stressful to me as a property manager.

 

[TNSTAAFL]

Yes. That’s what hunting is like in a lot of the Midwest. My last sit during archery season i saw 12 different bucks and at least 30 does. 1 of these was a mature buck. Something is wrong when you have numbers like that

That's wild. Definitely not like that up here in VT. I saw one button buck all weekend.

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[DelaWhere_Arrow]

Yes. That’s what hunting is like in a lot of the Midwest. My last sit during archery season i saw 12 different bucks and at least 30 does. 1 of these was a mature buck. Something is wrong when you have numbers like that

I dunno, I’m quite okay with a 3-1, 4-1, even 5-1 ratio of does to bucks on my property. I’ve heard even 6-1 or higher from some managers (not sure I buy that one). Reasoning is, 2-3 does bred per buck in average rut.
maturity of bucks is an X factor, I agree there

 

[DelaWhere_Arrow]

Unfortunately, I live just outside the CWD watch zone in my state, which keeps migrating closer every year. I was under the impression that:
1) the contents of those carcass dumpsters get incinerated eventually to a very low form of ash
2) burying, surface depth down to the frost line, is exactly the opposite of what most game departments that are dealing with CWD on an appreciable scale want you to do, because those prions are able to stay in the soil and even leach into the vegetation growing around that site, then by the scat of animals that eat it, etc. kinda like toxoplasmosis is spread largely by cat feces and can stay within soil, vegetation, other carrier animals as a result of leaving infected animals lay.
I know that both states I’ve lived in have strongly discouraged burying infected or suspected carcasses, and it’s actually unlawful to leave any part of any deer harvested within the CWD counties (regardless of infected status per individual animal) because they can carry prions long after death or be carriers without symptoms for a long time. Every single deer in those counties must be sampled by DNR and butchered by an approved butcher who will submit samples (according to a friend and LEO who hunts those counties). I’m not a deer biologist, but it’s all very stressful to me as a property manager.

Okay, following up on my own musings and what I believed both my friend and I interpreting the regs, I went and re-read the parts I could quickly find about CWD and carcasses. This is just the overview from regs manual, so there is probably more to read or talk to DNR about, but both he and I were…a little inaccurate in our assertions of the current laws. Some clipped screenshots for your own reading, will look familiar to some guys already:

 

[Blacksmith]

I got a hot take on this one.

Law should only require the backstraps be taken.

Ok ok I know that’s probably unpopular, and I take and use all of the animals I kill, BUT the fact is in most of the country whitetails are overpopulated. 99% of rifle only hunters or people who hunt a couple weekends a year and don’t really get that into hunting will only shoot 1 buck or 2 bucks and no does. That does not help control the population. These type of people see the processing of a deer as a chore. It needs to be socially acceptable to kill a deer for the sake of killing a deer, and maintaining a healthy population. I’m no biologist, but if you can see 40 of something in a hayfield at once that means there’s too many of them.

I’ve got 6 deer down so far this year. I also have giant freezers full of all the beef I want. I do not need more meat, but I need to kill more deer. We have found creative ways to use the meat and I encourage more people to do so. The fact remains, most people will not kill does until it becomes less of a chore.

Well said .I know we have killed 18 this yr on adjacent farms and still see 20+ in an evening. I can't leave them lay myself so I donate to folks who want them.

 

[Blacksmith]

Unfortunately, I live just outside the CWD watch zone in my state, which keeps migrating closer every year. I was under the impression that:
1) the contents of those carcass dumpsters get incinerated eventually to a very low form of ash
2) burying, surface depth down to the frost line, is exactly the opposite of what most game departments that are dealing with CWD on an appreciable scale want you to do, because those prions are able to stay in the soil and even leach into the vegetation growing around that site, then by the scat of animals that eat it, etc. kinda like toxoplasmosis is spread largely by cat feces and can stay within soil, vegetation, other carrier animals as a result of leaving infected animals lay.
I know that both states I’ve lived in have strongly discouraged burying infected or suspected carcasses, and it’s actually unlawful to leave any part of any deer harvested within the CWD counties (regardless of infected status per individual animal) because they can carry prions long after death or be carriers without symptoms for a long time. Every single deer in those counties must be sampled by DNR and butchered by an approved butcher who will submit samples (according to a friend and LEO who hunts those counties). I’m not a deer biologist, but it’s all very stressful to me as a property manager.

It really makes me nervous about eating them from our CWD counties. The regs handbook says it's not transferable to humans but to wear gloves when handling your deer and do not eat any that are tested pos. Does that really sound safe??

 

[The_Fit_Ness_Monster]

I got a hot take on this one.

Law should only require the backstraps be taken.

Ok ok I know that’s probably unpopular, and I take and use all of the animals I kill, BUT the fact is in most of the country whitetails are overpopulated. 99% of rifle only hunters or people who hunt a couple weekends a year and don’t really get that into hunting will only shoot 1 buck or 2 bucks and no does. That does not help control the population. These type of people see the processing of a deer as a chore. It needs to be socially acceptable to kill a deer for the sake of killing a deer, and maintaining a healthy population. I’m no biologist, but if you can see 40 of something in a hayfield at once that means there’s too many of them.

I’ve got 6 deer down so far this year. I also have giant freezers full of all the beef I want. I do not need more meat, but I need to kill more deer. We have found creative ways to use the meat and I encourage more people to do so. The fact remains, most people will not kill does until it becomes less of a chore.

Yeah i see this alot, people get so caught up in shooting that big buck blah blah blah, like everything else TV has ruined younger and some older hunters. I hunt for meat strictly, bow hunting only on public land so if its brown its down and ill fill doe tags first, most years its all i fill and i get 4/season. I always say, you cant eat horns, mounting is expensive, and spikes taste better than 10’s lol i have a bit of controversial take on this, if youre not hunting for meat dont hunt. If you wanna pursue something go to the bar and chase women thats a chase with actual consequences lmao

 

[NMSbowhunter]

That's wild. Definitely not like that up here in VT. I saw one button buck all weekend.

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It's not like that here at all either. Of the last 8 days I have been out I have seen zero deer (deer of any kind, not bucks) while in the saddle in spite of hunting good fresh feed sign and moving a lot trying to get on deer. Of the remainder of the days hunted this season I have had deer at my location on three out of 5 of those. One evening was well past dark when they came in and busted out while I was climbing down. I have done as many as 18 days straight without seeing a single deer on stand. I estimate we have 4 to 6 deer per square mile where I hunt. Our numbers are very low, and most deer are very nocturnal.

 

[Hunter260]

I dunno, I’m quite okay with a 3-1, 4-1, even 5-1 ratio of does to bucks on my property. I’ve heard even 6-1 or higher from some managers (not sure I buy that one). Reasoning is, 2-3 does bred per buck in average rut.
maturity of bucks is an X factor, I agree there

But you’re managing a property strictly for the number of whitetail present, and the amount of “fun” a guy can have sitting in a treestand right? That’s not the healthiest for the deer or the land.

 

[Jtaylor]

I guess I don't know enough about landfill liners to know how well prions would be contained.

I don't have specific data but I can say with relative certainty better than they would if someone dumped one in a ditch that could in turn carry prions to a bigger water body and so on.
A lot of guys around here get a game cart, 4 wheeler, pickup, etc. to haul their whole carcass deer out and aren't going to take the time or effort to return the deer to the location of kill. Processors throw the deer carcasses in a roll off container which then go to the landfill.
Landfills are already set up to control some contamination (to what degree I have no idea). I just know I'm not getting Mildred's Hepetitis from the care center from her dirty diaper that gets thrown in the trash and then into the landfill (different disease processes I know).
Anyways, I think with as little as we know about CWD and the vast majority of people hauling deer out (at least in my area) the people in the know suggest throwing the remains in the trash.
I'm not arguing your point about leaving it where it lays because it makes the most sense and they'll eventually die there anyways but the masses probably don't process their deer this way.

 

[DelaWhere_Arrow]

It really makes me nervous about eating them from our CWD counties. The regs handbook says it's not transferable to humans but to wear gloves when handling your deer and do not eat any that are tested pos. Does that really sound safe??

Yeah, the literature is not exactly confidence-inspiring. And my main reason for hunting is that my family eats venison like twice a week or more. I’m sure lots of ppl have stopped hunting outright because of it. Doe harvests are possibly down too.

 

[BTaylor]

does incineration kill prions - Google Search

www.google.com

Seems like the jury is kinda still out, but incineration at or above 1000 Celsius appears to do the trick.

It doesn't appear that there's a real solution. It's almost inspiring how well imperfect replication and selection for survival works. On the flip side, it's kinda terrifying.

Like it is almost by design huh?

 

[TooheyBirdie]

It's definitly a weird disease. Concentrations of deer carcasses at historical dump areas (bridges, etc.) or leaving them in the field could possibly transfer CWD prions via the grass the deer eat. Obviously there's no way to control where a deer dies in the wild but I think they're trying to slow potential concentrations by informing hunters and/or providing locations to dispose. I live in a CWD area and the suggested method of disposal is via garbage which then goes to the landfill with all the other creepy crawlies. Landfills are concentrarions of who knows what but in theory they have better runoff control via liners, etc.
Here's an interesting atricle on PubMed if you have the time: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4449294/

This what I was wondering about too... I'm in a CWD zone in MN and we're only allowed to leave the gut pile... In my mind, if I hadn't killed that animal and it died in a year or two, it's body would lay in the grass and breakdown naturally.... I'm not really in agreement that putting it in the landfill would do a better job of reducing the spread of CWD... I would think the number of birds I see in the landfill would do just as good of a job at spreading it around as would have happened had the body been left in the wood... and honestly something just feels disrespectful to the animal when I put is unused parts into a plastic bag... if prefer that any of the parts I don't use start within its local biome...

 

[Jtaylor]

I would think the number of birds I see in the landfill would do just as good of a job at spreading it around as would have happened had the body been left in the wood..

I'm all about leaving them where they lay, that's the most natural. A lot of guys remove the whole carcass and dump the remains in a different location.
I've had many jobs in my life and I'm guessing after this you can guess what one of them was. Anyways, anything dumped at a landfill isn't on top for long. It's at least not as long as a deer carcass left in the woods.

 

[DelaWhere_Arrow]

But you’re managing a property strictly for the number of whitetail present, and the amount of “fun” a guy can have sitting in a treestand right? That’s not the healthiest for the deer or the land.

No, I’m managing the property for the property, which sees multiple uses by lots of other ppl besides hunters, and critters other than deer. MoF, im the only hunter on our actual property. As for the ratio, the ideal ratio for me is like 3 or 4 to 1, bucks to does. Just what seems to be best for our area. Other landowners seem to agree locally, and I used some input from deer researchers I reached out to over the last couple of summers. Not a whole lot of deer getting killed anyway the last few years, have had a lot of bucks jump in size with greater numbers of spikes too, while seems like there are a few more does but bigger clumps. Sample : I saw 12 bucks on Nov 12ish. Same hunt, saw three or four groups of does, at least 4 per group. Similar weighting of sex ratio during this whole month of November. That doesn’t mean it’s hit “ideal”, but I don’t hate those numbers from a treestand or based on what kind of food/cover/water we have available. I’m one of the only neighbors who shoots does, unfortunately, and and despite that I still think we need to “hold” more does. but not a right answer to fit every area, and I think you just need enough does for every buck to have at least two dates each year. Impossible to know actual numbers, just what we’ve been working on for the three seasons I’ve been here. And the hunting has gotten better.
that’s what I love about managing property though, always something to learn, adjust, improve, and the data is always changing.

 

[DelaWhere_Arrow]

This what I was wondering about too... I'm in a CWD zone in MN and we're only allowed to leave the gut pile... In my mind, if I hadn't killed that animal and it died in a year or two, it's body would lay in the grass and breakdown naturally.... I'm not really in agreement that putting it in the landfill would do a better job of reducing the spread of CWD... I would think the number of birds I see in the landfill would do just as good of a job at spreading it around as would have happened had the body been left in the wood... and honestly something just feels disrespectful to the animal when I put is unused parts into a plastic bag... if prefer that any of the parts I don't use start within its local biome...

Making sense, are we? I think about the same thing when I read about throwing in household trash…like, those bags break when they have too many diapers in them, a crow or raccoon isn’t going to peck open a trash bag full of deer waste at a landfill or dumpster? Okay.

 

[SNIPERBBB]

Nothing is ever wasted unless you send it to a landfill

 

[NMSbowhunter]

CWD and all that aside, from a personal standpoint I feel like it is certainly more respectful to the deer to leave its remains in the area it was born, lived its life and ultimately died. Almost everyone agrees that game animals deserve as clean and pain free death as we can give them and many feel that excessive celebration and high fiving at killing an animal is distasteful, especially on video. I just see dumping the unused portion of the deer's body in a garbage can as disrespectful to the animal. I personally don't treat them like trash.

 

[TNSTAAFL]

Nothing is ever wasted

Totally agree with this part.

unless you send it to a landfill

Not so much with this part. But I know little about landfills. It's just that I can't imagine they are these magical places where all regular natural processes of the universe cease to function.



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