What is current "state of the art" rappel gear for SH?

[colin.704]

This thread has got me wanting to re-think my whole system. Especially JRBs comment on being able to self rescue without something under my feet, since I one stick.

I currently climb with and hang from my madrock, but once at hunting height I back it up with either a Cantrell above the madrock, then clipped into a redundant amsteel bridge, or I will wrap my linesmans around the tree and use it as a second tether, and clip into my redundant bridge that way via a prusik or distel. I leave just the slightest bit of slack in the redundant bridge so as not to interfere with my positioning on the tree.

Now I'm wondering about hanging from the madrock at all with all these comments about the madrock failing. Plus I keep seeing this comment brought up about a guy demonstrating how to one stick at some sort of saddle demo, and his madrock giving way and dropping him 10 feet out of the tree. Just makes me squeamish.

How can I improve on this to be as safe as possible, especially while moving up before I have my madrock backed up?

BT

I was at the meetup, still use a madrock, I don't back it up. I consider it safe how I use it. 3 years, no issues. do what YOU are comfortable with. the more complicated your system, the more room for errors. I'm more concerned with user error than equipment failure as far as other people climbing. whichever route you go get comfortable with it and don't change your system 3 times a month, because that's where user error gets introduced

 

[John RB]

Read my comment above carefully about what Madrock replied about backing up Safeguard. Having a knot on the brake strand will not lead to risk of a ground fall. Madrock considers the situation where your weight is held by the knot jammed against the device instead of cam pinching the rope as "failed system". The device won't break and let you fall to ground because you tied a knot on the rope. I still wouldn't use prusik on a brake strand as you could then theoretically create a situation where the knot prevents the Safeguard functioning properly while the safeguard is tending your prusik.

How do you tie off? Take the rope you need to go around the tree. Reach the loop as high as you can push it and pull the slack through the safeguard. Leave maybe a foot of extra to deal with and tie an overhand bight or alpine butterfly on the brake strand. If you want to be extra safe, clip that bight on your linemans loop with a carabiner. Now it's phyiscally impossible for you to fall further than that distance unless the rope is cut. To be extra safe, when you climb, if you can't move the tether up, pull any slack through the Safeguard. When you get on the steps, get yourself protected by other means while you pull slack back into your tether and push the loop up the tree.

To prevent the cam obstruction by external object like climbing stick, branches, loose clothing etc, keep the safeguard close to your body. Shorten bridge or use a secondary bridge for the climb.

I don't recommend tying anything above the safeguard, if you need to lower yourself, you'd need to operate the handle and tend the prusik with one hand because under no circumstance you should operate the lever of the safeguard without holding firmly on the brake strand.

If you still feel uncomfortable about tying off the brake strand with safeguard, buy the Edelrid Megawatt. It has the cam better protected for obstruction and you can still tie off the brake strand just in case.


This is not really an improvement of safety in any way over tied off Safeguard. Prusiks hold only 0-6kN. Any type that you would be able to release under load would be at the very lower end of holding power + some have unpredictable behavior when the knot is on slack rope and loaded dynamically. Both jammed Safeguard and jammed prusik will need a prusik and a foot loop to move your weight off on second lowering system to get out.

A "Prusik" is a specific friction hitch, and it's very reliable but hard to operate. Other friction hitches have different properties. Complicating matters, every rope and cord combination is different, not to mention the number of wraps. The exact place where a friction hitch will slip or fail is an unknown, but the 0-6kn reference isn't accurate. Obviously, it held 1 or we would have slid off it. Where did you get that info? If i knew my friction hitch would slide if it saw 6kn, i believe that's might be good thing because the only way it could see that load was a big mistake for me: it could only happen from a fall with way too much slack.

As for your comment about a friction hitches that be broken under load being on the LOW end of the strength spectrum, it's too broad a statement. Where did you get that info? What hitches? Based on what test? For example, the JRB Ascender Hitch is remarkably easy to break under normal loads and astoundingly strong under a heavy load.

Has anyone done these kinds of tests with your favorite rope and favorite mechanical device? Why not? Why are we all guessing and speculating when another person reports a slip?

JrbTreeClimbing.com, affiliated with RockNArbor.com

 

[samu]

A "Prusik" is a specific friction hitch, and it's very reliable but hard to operate. Other friction hitches have different properties. Complicating matters, every rope and cord combination is different, not to mention the number of wraps. The exact place where a friction hitch will slip or fail is an unknown, but the 0-6kn reference isn't accurate. Obviously, it held 1 or we would have slid off it. Where did you get that info? If i knew my friction hitch would slide if it saw 6kn, i believe that's might be good thing because the only way it could see that load was a big mistake for me: it could only happen from a fall with way too much slack.

As for your comment about a friction hitches that be broken under load being on the LOW end of the strength spectrum, it's too broad a statement. Where did you get that info? What hitches? Based on what test? For example, the JRB Ascender Hitch is remarkably easy to break under normal loads and astoundingly strong under a heavy load.

Has anyone done these kinds of tests with your favorite rope and favorite mechanical device? Why not? Why are we all guessing and speculating when another person reports a slip?

JrbTreeClimbing.com, affiliated with RockNArbor.com

here are some load tests on different prusiks. Narrow variety as they mainly try to find balance where the knot slips vs cord breaks.

Bigger problem with prusiks is the user can't predict how much load their chosen knot can withstand.

True, I don't know for sure if breakable prusiks actually slip easier. I didn't think that through. You should know though that standard practice in arborist climbing is to have rope wrench above the friction hitch. Yes I know prusik is just one specific friction hitch, whole sport climbing industry uses it to describe a friction hitch in general and looped cord to make a friction hitch is similarly referred as prusik loop.

Looking into it I managed to debunk my own claims actually:

I still don't think using a directly loaded friction hitch is appropriate way to attach on a rope when you risk taking a fall on slack rope.

 

[Chandler96]

I was at the meetup, still use a madrock, I don't back it up. I consider it safe how I use it. 3 years, no issues. do what YOU are comfortable with. the more complicated your system, the more room for errors. I'm more concerned with user error than equipment failure as far as other people climbing. whichever route you go get comfortable with it and don't change your system 3 times a month, because that's where user error gets introduced

1000% my exact thoughts! perfectly said.