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What, when, where, why, how

BTaylor

Well-Known Member
SH Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2019
Messages
6,425
Location
Central Arkansas
Hopefully, this post will help anyone who is either early into or reevaluating their deer hunting. 5 questions, what, where, when, how and why. Order doesnt really matter and you dont have to be able to answer all 5 to kill deer. This is more about how we answer the questions and how that will influence the type and amount of success a hunter has. Growing up, my mentors taught me to hunt deer the exact same way @WHW hunts them by focusing on feed patterns. Where? feed, what? preferred mast at the time, when? learn the drop times for preferred mast and adjust through the fall, why? deer have to eat, how? climb the best tree in bow range downwind of the target tree. This approach works and works very well, especially in the big flat riverbottoms I grew up hunting.

I have wanted to learn to hunt the mountains though and finally this spring have been logging miles looking at ground, looking for sign and asking my questions. Before I started scouting though I spent some time talking with a few guys I know that area successful killing mature bucks in the mountains and grew up hunting in the mountains. Also listened to a number of podcast re: mountain hunting One of those guys is one of my closest friends but we didnt grow up hunting together. When we first began hunting together, in the bottoms, he would point out a tree and say "man you could kill one right here" I would look around scratching my head wondering what in the crap he was seeing that made him think that. He would make comments about not paying much attention to sign and esp. feed sign. We would talk about pinch points, funnels etc. I understood those things and saw the really defined ones but when I asked myself my questions the answers always were from the perspective of how I was taught. After a few mountain scouting trips, I was finding some stuff but not what I thought I should be. Someone here mentioned Caltopo, I think it was @woodsdog2 and so I pulled that up along with google earth and the other maps I was using. I got to thinking about the different features I had heard mentioned and zeroed in on trying to find those things on the maps and what do you know, there they are. But the light still wasnt on. That didnt happen until the next scouting trip. I picked a couple areas and dropped a bunch of pins on things based solely on map study with the intent to verify in person to see if deer were using the spots. As I moved from pin to pin every single spot had deer sign, trails, scrapes, rubs. The lights starting to flicker a little but not yet fully on. The 6th pin I checked, one I had in my mind that should be really good, was tore up with big scrapes. I was standing 40 yards from where I had walked the first trip into that area. That first trip I saw a small rub and a small scrape which was disappointing because I had thought it should be a great spot.

Standing there thinking about how close I had been to such great sign and the difference in 40 yards is when the light came on. When I initially map scouted and the first trip in I wasnt asking or answering my questions the right way. The reason the guys I knew that were successful in the mountains saw entirely different things in the woods was how they answered those 5 questions. Time to reevaluate, the questions are the same but how do I answer them? I thought about that for a few minutes and started with the new pins. I dropped those pins on defined features, the what. What hard terrain feature is going to make a deer put his feet right here? Why, because it influences travel whether that relates to feed, bedding or breeding. Where, this is the zoom out a bit aspect, where is he coming from, where is he going, from a landscape view as it relates to food, bed, breeding and is there a what that connects more than one of those? Is there more than one what that you can tie into the where? How? Though I havent put this into practice yet in the mountains on whitetails, I am relying on elk hunting experience and focusing on access and air movement with air movement being the combination of wind direction, terrain influence on wind and thermal movement. Which route to the what doesnt disturb the where's but keeps the advantage of air movement? If you primarily hunt with a gun or ML you will have more flexibility here. When will influence which what's to focus on. Is it early season or late season and a food to bed pattern or is it during the phases of the rut? Which what's play into those phases?

I will be a mountain whitetail novice this fall but this change in a approach also applies to the bottoms I hunt as well as the rolling hills I hunt. I know that because I have watched my buddy use that approach and stack up big deer. I sent him a text the day it clicked for me and said I finally see what you see and his reply was I want to talk about it. On the phone he wanted to know what changed and I explained the what I grew up asking as opposed to his what and how answering that question differently influences the rest of the questions. He said he had never thought of it that way or heard it explained that way.

For you guys that are consistently successful regardless of terrain, feel free to add to this or offer counter opinions. I always want to share things I think will be helpful but I am also here to learn.
 
In short. Great topic
What ive been doing and have had consistent chances but, have screwed alot of them off up.
my fault completely.
But my whole process includes alot of what was said in this post but, you need to be ready to adapt to change especially the pressure we put on them.
in short
i love the mobile way and have for probably a good 15 years out of 30 years of hunting whitetails
I scout until i find what i think is good enough sign to hunt.
if i dont find thst sign I move on to the next spot. .
You gotta remember you need to hunt the right spots at the right times.
hunting just to hunt or to say i have 50-60-75 hunts in is relying on alot of luck which rarely works out.
hope this makes sense.
 
Great topic! Yes, I shared the shading episode on CalTopo on a Before The Echo podcast recently which outlined how one mountain hunter used that feature to identify areas where thermal drop is pretty consistent. Anyway, my analysis is always what time of the season then terrain, then everything else. I say that because access and egress are so important regardless of what features you’re keying on. If you can’t get to that super duper turkey foot ridge convergence that you know every buck will go through for the most part, that terrain feature is still useless for hunting even though it is a spectacular terrain feature otherwise.
 
Hopefully, this post will help anyone who is either early into or reevaluating their deer hunting. 5 questions, what, where, when, how and why. Order doesnt really matter and you dont have to be able to answer all 5 to kill deer. This is more about how we answer the questions and how that will influence the type and amount of success a hunter has. Growing up, my mentors taught me to hunt deer the exact same way @WHW hunts them by focusing on feed patterns. Where? feed, what? preferred mast at the time, when? learn the drop times for preferred mast and adjust through the fall, why? deer have to eat, how? climb the best tree in bow range downwind of the target tree. This approach works and works very well, especially in the big flat riverbottoms I grew up hunting.

I have wanted to learn to hunt the mountains though and finally this spring have been logging miles looking at ground, looking for sign and asking my questions. Before I started scouting though I spent some time talking with a few guys I know that area successful killing mature bucks in the mountains and grew up hunting in the mountains. Also listened to a number of podcast re: mountain hunting One of those guys is one of my closest friends but we didnt grow up hunting together. When we first began hunting together, in the bottoms, he would point out a tree and say "man you could kill one right here" I would look around scratching my head wondering what in the crap he was seeing that made him think that. He would make comments about not paying much attention to sign and esp. feed sign. We would talk about pinch points, funnels etc. I understood those things and saw the really defined ones but when I asked myself my questions the answers always were from the perspective of how I was taught. After a few mountain scouting trips, I was finding some stuff but not what I thought I should be. Someone here mentioned Caltopo, I think it was @woodsdog2 and so I pulled that up along with google earth and the other maps I was using. I got to thinking about the different features I had heard mentioned and zeroed in on trying to find those things on the maps and what do you know, there they are. But the light still wasnt on. That didnt happen until the next scouting trip. I picked a couple areas and dropped a bunch of pins on things based solely on map study with the intent to verify in person to see if deer were using the spots. As I moved from pin to pin every single spot had deer sign, trails, scrapes, rubs. The lights starting to flicker a little but not yet fully on. The 6th pin I checked, one I had in my mind that should be really good, was tore up with big scrapes. I was standing 40 yards from where I had walked the first trip into that area. That first trip I saw a small rub and a small scrape which was disappointing because I had thought it should be a great spot.

Standing there thinking about how close I had been to such great sign and the difference in 40 yards is when the light came on. When I initially map scouted and the first trip in I wasnt asking or answering my questions the right way. The reason the guys I knew that were successful in the mountains saw entirely different things in the woods was how they answered those 5 questions. Time to reevaluate, the questions are the same but how do I answer them? I thought about that for a few minutes and started with the new pins. I dropped those pins on defined features, the what. What hard terrain feature is going to make a deer put his feet right here? Why, because it influences travel whether that relates to feed, bedding or breeding. Where, this is the zoom out a bit aspect, where is he coming from, where is he going, from a landscape view as it relates to food, bed, breeding and is there a what that connects more than one of those? Is there more than one what that you can tie into the where? How? Though I havent put this into practice yet in the mountains on whitetails, I am relying on elk hunting experience and focusing on access and air movement with air movement being the combination of wind direction, terrain influence on wind and thermal movement. Which route to the what doesnt disturb the where's but keeps the advantage of air movement? If you primarily hunt with a gun or ML you will have more flexibility here. When will influence which what's to focus on. Is it early season or late season and a food to bed pattern or is it during the phases of the rut? Which what's play into those phases?

I will be a mountain whitetail novice this fall but this change in a approach also applies to the bottoms I hunt as well as the rolling hills I hunt. I know that because I have watched my buddy use that approach and stack up big deer. I sent him a text the day it clicked for me and said I finally see what you see and his reply was I want to talk about it. On the phone he wanted to know what changed and I explained the what I grew up asking as opposed to his what and how answering that question differently influences the rest of the questions. He said he had never thought of it that way or heard it explained that way.

For you guys that are consistently successful regardless of terrain, feel free to add to this or offer counter opinions. I always want to share things I think will be helpful but I am also here to learn.
Big woods deer do things with a purpose. They have too. Life is hard for them compared to agriculture deer.

They travel farther, they travel more in the daylight, They use elevation to their advantage. They cross rough ground like a walk in the park. They are just different. You kill a mature deer in big mountain woods, of any sex, you’ve killed a monarch.

Put in your time and find where they are using that year, and you’ll have a great hunt. Good luck and God Bless
 
The greatest battle of mtn hunting is the wind. By a mile. There is no rhyme, reason, logic, understanding, or sense to it. Thermals don't do what they're supposed to. I'm year 4 into mtn hunting, and the ever-shifting wind drove me insane and almost made hunting not fun.
There just isn't anything you can do about it and don't let it hold you back. What would have been my biggest buck to date this year if he didnt duck the shot came in from a ridge that was downwind of me.
 
I always think in terms of hunting pressure. The public land I hunt might be the most highly pressured land on earth, or at least it seems that way. Dealing with pressure can be as important as finding the deer.

What: will the hunting pressure be in this area? type of hunters ..... quality or average Joes?
When: will that pressure hit?
Where: will their stands be? will their bait piles be? will they park? will they camp? will their access trails be?
Why: is this area being targeted? is it worth my time?
How: will the deer respond to the pressure? do I use the above info to my advantage? Answer those 2 correctly and opportunity will follow.

It is not always going deeper that the other guys. It is mostly hunting where others don't. A mile deep or right behind the parking spot ........ I have shot nice bucks in both locations. That is what makes this game so much fun. Nothing better than outsmarting a nice buck and a whole camp full of hunters at the same time.
 
I always think in terms of hunting pressure. The public land I hunt might be the most highly pressured land on earth, or at least it seems that way. Dealing with pressure can be as important as finding the deer.

What: will the hunting pressure be in this area? type of hunters ..... quality or average Joes?
When: will that pressure hit?
Where: will their stands be? will their bait piles be? will they park? will they camp? will their access trails be?
Why: is this area being targeted? is it worth my time?
How: will the deer respond to the pressure? do I use the above info to my advantage? Answer those 2 correctly and opportunity will follow.

It is not always going deeper that the other guys. It is mostly hunting where others don't. A mile deep or right behind the parking spot ........ I have shot nice bucks in both locations. That is what makes this game so much fun. Nothing better than outsmarting a nice buck and a whole camp full of hunters at the same time.
Great point to apply the 5 primary questions to pressure. The second question under "How" is the trap though, at least it has been for me. If you had asked me before or during last season if I used the pressure info to my advantage I would have said way more times than not. Looking objectively at it now, I would say not nearly as effectively as I should have. The difference is because I was not asking the correct "What" question. I should have been looking at, based on pressure, what feature is going to have the deer put his feet right here.
 
Your timing posting this couldn’t be better for me. I’ve been injured all winter and am just now strong enough to do some “post season scouting.” One of the things I try and do between seasons is answer questions that came up during the prior season. I love riddles; w,w,w,w,w, and how is a great way to frame an approach. I look forward to hearing what people share.
 
Great point to apply the 5 primary questions to pressure. The second question under "How" is the trap though, at least it has been for me. If you had asked me before or during last season if I used the pressure info to my advantage I would have said way more times than not. Looking objectively at it now, I would say not nearly as effectively as I should have. The difference is because I was not asking the correct "What" question. I should have been looking at, based on pressure, what feature is going to have the deer put his feet right here.
Pressure stinks but it is the reality most of us have to deal with to some degree. I scouted a stand this weekend that is 70 yards off a parking area. One of the best setups I have ever found. This spot is going to be all about the WHEN. Two guys hunt in the other direction from where I will setup. Both have ladder stands and bait piles, but they only hunt opening weekend and then again towards rut .... a pretty standard average joe strategy. The deer have them pegged. They are missing the fact that deer and most likely their target bucks are bedded within earshot of that parking spot. They can also see the parking spot from the hillside bench I will be hunting. Looks like a staging area with multiple escape routes if the parking spot is occupied. I wonder if those two will ever figure out how much better the hunting could be if they parked on the road and walked the 1/4 mile to their stands. Probably not, so that leaves me a month to take a buck between opener and rut. At least that is the plan.
 
Obviously dont know the area or the access, just thinking out loud here. Would it be beneficial to also scout the escape routes and look for a feature that would cause them to walk in a certain spot along that route that you take advantage of and catch them slippin out? A tactic for those hunts where you expect other hunters to use that parking spot.
 
Big woods deer do things with a purpose. They have too. Life is hard for them compared to agriculture deer.

They travel farther, they travel more in the daylight, They use elevation to their advantage. They cross rough ground like a walk in the park. They are just different. You kill a mature deer in big mountain woods, of any sex, you’ve killed a monarch.

Put in your time and find where they are using that year, and you’ll have a great hunt. Good luck and God Bless
I wanted to come back to your post specifically for the highlighted portion. While you were mostly referencing mountain deer, big woods river bottom deer follow that same "doing things with a purpose" idea. Successful mountain hunters have a process and things they are looking for. Most of the guys I am aware of that successfully hunt big bottoms also have a process and things they are looking for. There is a lot of overlap even though the topography is entirely different. Reading articles and more so listening to a lot of podcast, folks explain things in a way that will help you start to see the forest for the trees but I wanted to see the matirx. The 5 question process came about as a way for me to hopefully capitalize on that purpose you mentioned by applying a micro/macro/micro view to an area (large scale) and linking points based on food, bed and phases of the rut. For reference, I am applying this to 4 pieces of ground for bowhunting, approx 10k acres, 2 areas in the mountains(entirely new to me) and 2 areas in the bottoms(hunted forever). In a perfect world this will have me playing ahead of the game rather than looking for where they went, for the entirety of the season. Nerdy I know but I have a Mossy Oak pocket protector so I'm good.
 
Obviously dont know the area or the access, just thinking out loud here. Would it be beneficial to also scout the escape routes and look for a feature that would cause them to walk in a certain spot along that route that you take advantage of and catch them slippin out? A tactic for those hunts where you expect other hunters to use that parking spot.

I think the terrain is going to make this spot a one-trick pony. Just hope it's a good trick.
 
Good topic. I'm glad things are starting to "click" for you. It's a good feeling when a plan comes together. I'll throw another "5" at you. Gene Wensel told me 30 years ago that every time you hunt a tree that you should have 5 good reasons why you should be hunting that tree. If you don't have them then you should be hunting somewhere else. Sometimes I forget that advice and it cost me. Last year I hunted a particular tree because I dropped something at the base and I wanted to get it. The tree has been good in the past but it was dead last year. I hunted it again anyway because it was convenient. Ghost town! I wasted a hours in a tree when my hunting time was limited. Dumb!
 
One more W word for the list- wind. I think I've screwed up more chances than I realize by walking in from the wrong direction or having the wind shift and not realizing/adjusting as a result.

I have wondered a lot about this. A main area my buddies and I hunted this past rut was south of the only access trail, so we always were walking S with a N wind at our backs. It wasn’t usually a strong wind, and we’d cut E or W 400yrds before our posts, but I wondered if we were screwing the whole area with this approach.

The only approach from the S, to access without being winded, would’ve been by boat
 
I have wondered a lot about this. A main area my buddies and I hunted this past rut was south of the only access trail, so we always were walking S with a N wind at our backs. It wasn’t usually a strong wind, and we’d cut E or W 400yrds before our posts, but I wondered if we were screwing the whole area with this approach.

The only approach from the S, to access without being winded, would’ve been by boat
It's not generally thought of as optimal but I think it really boils down to where the deer are at your time of entry and how they move directionally in your hunting area. Reality is it could be the best approach or worst depending.
 
I would say the biggest difference is our woods/mountain deer are much more nomadic than the farm deer. I have a few rut spots that reliably produce year to year, but those are rare. Usually it's a continuous process staying on top of what the deer in the area are doing. I've learned not to plan out my season too much and just go with the flow. If I get a bug it in my head that there is some kind of playbook or systemized approach to hunting it seems to hinder my success and decrease my enjoyment, but it may be more how my brain functions.
 
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