Who has snorted the Fairy Dust?

[Plebe]

Wasnt a trajectory issue, it was a hard left turn issue.

I hit a branch once too. Quite awhile ago. I can't say I saw the branch or that trajectory was specifically the cause. Another hunter got that one, and it scored really well. I'm shooting the same bow still, and with heavier TAW arrows. So, there it is, lol.

 

[1simplemann]

View attachment 79809

The topic came up here and I had just clipped an old video.

This buck is at about 27-30 yards. I marked the hole in shooting through with screen shot. Camera is a couple feet below me. The hole is probabky something like triangle with 2’ sides. Maybe 15-20” “circle” to shoot through. Right down side of tree on right side of hole. Deer was framed perfectly in it, and the branch I hit was roughly halfway between

260fps arrow. Bow zero at 27yards.

It may not look it in the grainy video and from the cameras perspective, but there’s nothing in the hole I highlighted between my vantage and the deer.

315fps arrow makes it home. Do I shoot 315fps now because of it? Nope. But there’s a lot of shots you can’t make with a heavy slow arrow that you can with a fast arrow.

What a wild hunt. Four rack bucks chasing a doe, made a set on them. He was the smallest and last to come through right at dark. 15 minute standoff with me and a bleat can, and him knowing he was going to get his but whipped if he came closer, but just couldn’t resist. Gave me the ole circle.

I just watched your video on my flat screen. Cool video. Heck of a nice buck! That was a very tough shot to make. In this case from what I could tell from the video, I don't think any arrow makes it home at any speed. That's just my opinion. I wasn't actually in the tree to see what you saw. I don't know if you went in cold or if that was a tree that you regularly hunt. If that was the 1st time you've ever been there, then you get what get as far as shooting lanes go. You were forced to try and make something happen. I totally get it. I've been there myself this season and several times in the past. However, If this was one of your regular trees, I personally would have had several shooting holes trimmed in advance. They always seem to walk on the "one" trail that you can't you shoot to.

 

[1simplemann]

Do NFAA targets react to sound or sense an object approaching them and move?

I'm all for 2 holes through a deer and that good stuff. But there are more factors to consider in hunting scenarios than knowing distance and sending an arrow to a bullseye, and dismissing the merits of flat trajectory and short time to target is shortsighted imo.

I agree with the poster (@Buckhole75) who thinks compromise is necessary, cut the cake how you will.

You may have missed my point, I was merely stating that trajectory has no bearing on accuracy in the woods and on the range IF you know the range. Especially on deer at what I would consider would be the primary distance we kill them at. 20 yds is 20 yds.

I will concede that if you don't know the range ESPECIALLY at longer ranges then yes, speed and flat trajectory do play a factor in accuracy. However, I would argue that accuracy is only half the battle. It's what the arrow does AFTER it hit's it's intended target that really matters. Who cares if you hit it? Did you kill it? Did it run off w/ arrow in it's shoulder? Have you ever missed the paper target by 3-4" to the left or right?. I bet you have. A shoulder hit is essentially a 3-4 inch "miss" to the left or right. The vitals are directly behind that shoulder. If you get through that then you get your animal. Otherwise you get a wounded animal and a disappointed bowhunter. If it's trophy buck, then get a REALLY disappointed bowhunter. I promise you, If you bowhunt long enough, then your gonna experience some of those disappointments as well as highs. An Ashby style set up offers to reduce some of those disappointments and turn them into highs. Who doesn't want that?

Since you mentioned that there are "other factors" to be considered, I will bring up a factor that you may or may have not considered. At longer ranges, energy retention is even MORE important than at closer ranges. It's been scientifically proven that a heavy projectile retains it's momentum better. It's also been proven that energy loss is exponential the the further out the target is. A Heavy projectile clearly outperforms a lighter projectile ANY way you cut the cake as you put it. Why would you want anything less? For me, I would want a projectile that would have the maximum punch at my maximum comfortable shooting range.

Time to target? Not a factor. At all. Speed of sound is faster than ANY arrow. If they are gonna jump, then they are gonna jump. Your arrow isn't going beat the sound. They jump because they are surprised. The louder the noise, the more they are surprised. Clap unexpectantly next to my ear and I'm gonna jump. Clap 20 yds away and I might look at you. Now factor in that deer are prey animals that are wired to jump and they will explode if they are surprised. If you don't believe me, get near a horse and surprise him. I was kicked in the face from a horse that turned his head and looked DIRECTLY at me. I assumed he knew I was there since he looked at me. Big mistake! I touched his butt from the side and he still got me. I knew never to approach a horse from behind but I didn't think he could get me from the side. Wrong! (side moral of the story, always approach a horse from the front and talk to them otherwise they could split your lip or worse. I was lucky and only got the former) Anyway, I would argue that a Heavy arrow makes your bow quieter therefore they will jump the string less. Again, the stick bow guys have been doing this for years. For the most part, their bows are QUIET. They lob them in there at 125-175 fps. I've known quite a few stick bow guys over the years. I've never heard any of them complain that they have a problem of deer jumping the string.

 

[Weldabeast]

The flip side a real heavy arrow can contact things in flight and keep going on the same trajectory or have the flight be affected very little....the little invisible twig can change the path of a light arrow more vs very little on the heavies....but I'm talking about weights most aren't going to attempt at all. I practice shooting thru palmettos all the time

 

[Horn]

The flip side a real heavy arrow can contact things in flight and keep going on the same trajectory or have the flight be affected very little....the little invisible twig can change the path of a light arrow more vs very little on the heavies....but I'm talking about weights most aren't going to attempt at all. I practice shooting thru palmettos all the time

Do you know if this is a TAW or FOC thing? Less deflect if you contact something? I would guess most people increase both at the same time so it'd be hard to say

 

[Weldabeast]

Imo combination of both..... mass pushing/absorbing impact and all the weight all up front stabilizing flight

 

[Plebe]

You may have missed my point, I was merely stating that trajectory has no bearing on accuracy in the woods and on the range IF you know the range. Especially on deer at what I would consider would be the primary distance we kill them at. 20 yds is 20 yds.

I will concede that if you don't know the range ESPECIALLY at longer ranges then yes, speed and flat trajectory do play a factor in accuracy. However, I would argue that accuracy is only half the battle. It's what the arrow does AFTER it hit's it's intended target that really matters. Who cares if you hit it? Did you kill it? Did it run off w/ arrow in it's shoulder? Have you ever missed the paper target by 3-4" to the left or right?. I bet you have. A shoulder hit is essentially a 3-4 inch "miss" to the left or right. The vitals are directly behind that shoulder. If you get through that then you get your animal. Otherwise you get a wounded animal and a disappointed bowhunter. If it's trophy buck, then get a REALLY disappointed bowhunter. I promise you, If you bowhunt long enough, then your gonna experience some of those disappointments as well as highs. An Ashby style set up offers to reduce some of those disappointments and turn them into highs. Who doesn't want that?

Since you mentioned that there are "other factors" to be considered, I will bring up a factor that you may or may have not considered. At longer ranges, energy retention is even MORE important than at closer ranges. It's been scientifically proven that a heavy projectile retains it's momentum better. It's also been proven that energy loss is exponential the the further out the target is. A Heavy projectile clearly outperforms a lighter projectile ANY way you cut the cake as you put it. Why would you want anything less? For me, I would want a projectile that would have the maximum punch at my maximum comfortable shooting range.

Time to target? Not a factor. At all. Speed of sound is faster than ANY arrow. If they are gonna jump, then they are gonna jump. Your arrow isn't going beat the sound. They jump because they are surprised. The louder the noise, the more they are surprised. Clap unexpectantly next to my ear and I'm gonna jump. Clap 20 yds away and I might look at you. Now factor in that deer are prey animals that are wired to jump and they will explode if they are surprised. If you don't believe me, get near a horse and surprise him. I was kicked in the face from a horse that turned his head and looked DIRECTLY at me. I assumed he knew I was there since he looked at me. Big mistake! I touched his butt from the side and he still got me. I knew never to approach a horse from behind but I didn't think he could get me from the side. Wrong! (side moral of the story, always approach a horse from the front and talk to them otherwise they could split your lip or worse. I was lucky and only got the former) Anyway, I would argue that a Heavy arrow makes your bow quieter therefore they will jump the string less. Again, the stick bow guys have been doing this for years. For the most part, their bows are QUIET. They lob them in there at 125-175 fps. I've known quite a few stick bow guys over the years. I've never heard any of them complain that they have a problem of deer jumping the string.

I've heard these Asbyisms before, there are good takeaways from that creed. But I disagree that time to target is not a factor and think there are compromises that make sense. Sorry you got kicked in the face by a horse.

 

[Allegheny Tom]

I've heard these Asbyisms before, there are good takeaways from that creed. But I disagree that time to target is not a factor and think there are compromises that make sense. Sorry you got kicked in the face by a horse.

A fatal wound versus a non fatal wound can be a matter of fractions of an inch. The same can be said about the recovery rate. There are a lot of variables involved.
Our animal is very likely to react and move before our arrow arrives. Its impossible to predict if a slower, heavy arrow will be more or less effective than a lighter faster arrow. There are always trade offs with gear selections. There will most definitely be times when a faster arrow arriving a millisecond sooner will contact a lethal location where as the slower arrow may miss that artery by 1/10".
Conversely, the heavy arrow may breach bone and create internal damage that the light arrow wouldn't. It's a hard thing to predict.
What we can control is insisting on perfect arrow tuning/ flight, quiet bows, with durable arrow components, and only responsible shots taken.
I don't believe enough guys understand the body language of deer. Taking shots on them when they are alerted is asking for them to duck or dodge.
The debate goes much beyond how heavy an arrow should be.

 

[Weldabeast]

My line of thinking is the animal is gonna drop so I'd rather miss low. I aim low anticipating my slow arrow "intercepting" the vitals as they move when the range of the shot increases.

 

[Weldabeast]

Longer 25-30 yard shot I'm looking at 4D favoring the right side and favoring the bottom if out at max range if shooting off the ground

 

[Plebe]

I find it interesting when folks talk "broadside".

There can be quite a difference in that position, depending on how the deer's front legs are oriented.

 

[Weldabeast]

Last deer was out at max30, I aimed 4D and the arrow hit 5B

 

[kyler1945]

I just watched your video on my flat screen. Cool video. Heck of a nice buck! That was a very tough shot to make. In this case from what I could tell from the video, I don't think any arrow makes it home at any speed. That's just my opinion. I wasn't actually in the tree to see what you saw. I don't know if you went in cold or if that was a tree that you regularly hunt. If that was the 1st time you've ever been there, then you get what get as far as shooting lanes go. You were forced to try and make something happen. I totally get it. I've been there myself this season and several times in the past. However, If this was one of your regular trees, I personally would have had several shooting holes trimmed in advance. They always seem to walk on the "one" trail that you can't you shoot to.

Think you missed the point of the post. And maybe didn’t read the whole thing.

I appreciate the advice though!

Anyhow, i squared up a branch somewhere between 10-20 yards out at the top of the shot window. My bow, with an arrow shooting 315fps with all else being equal, would’ve passed 2” lower at that distance. Doesn’t seem like a lot. But I miss the branch.

I wasn’t trying to make any point other than that thing is a thing. With a visual demonstration.

 

[1simplemann]

I've heard these Asbyisms before, there are good takeaways from that creed. But I disagree that time to target is not a factor and think there are compromises that make sense. Sorry you got kicked in the face by a horse.

Thank you for your compassion. It was heart felt. LOL Anyway, I was just using that as an example of an animal's reaction to being surprised. I respectfully disagree w/ you on the time to target. I believe Brandon Macdonald has a video of 2 different arrows shot at 60yds with lighted nocks. It shows the flight of both arrows shot simultaneously and their impact. The heavy arrow arrives a fraction of a sec later than the lighter one. The time to target on both arrows is longer than the difference between the two impacts. And that was at 60 yds. At 20yds your talking about a micro fraction of a second. There will be almost no difference in impact point if an animal decides to duck if all things are equal. However all things are not equal, a bow shot with a lighter arrow produces a louder sound. It's not the sound but the degree of loudness that causes them to react. A quieter bow will have less of a reaction from the deer. Less of a react is a good thing. Who doesn't want that? You can't beat the speed of sound but you can reduce it. This heavy vs light debate will continue. You obviously know my opinions. They are based on my experiences and those of others that I've bowhunted with over the years. NJ has some very liberal limits. If a guy puts in the time, 20 or 30 deer a year is possible. These guys are some real killers. I'm talking about over 6 decades of bowhunting experience. They probably have close to 1000 bow kills total. I call Pete "the whitetail exterminator". Before the wife and kids, he hunted every day of the season for 4 months. I think he missed 3 days one year. Over 900+ kills total. I would bet half of them are bow kills. Scott has 350+ kills and the majority of those are bow kills. He's 58 and he still put's down 8-10 a year. The others have a 100+ bow kills.. Between the ages of 25 and 35, I put a whupping on them as well. 6 or 8 deer a year. I've slowed down a bit. Only 2 or 3 deer a year since then. I only get 1 buck tag so I concentrate on mature bucks. I don't say this to impress anyone. I say it because they have a VAST amount of knowledge that can be learned from. Personally I Iearned TONS from them. Who doesn't want learn tactics that will help them be more successful?

 

[Plebe]

Thank you for your compassion. It was heart felt. LOL Anyway, I was just using that as an example of an animal's reaction to being surprised. I respectfully disagree w/ you on the time to target. I believe Brandon Macdonald has a video of 2 different arrows shot at 60yds with lighted nocks. It shows the flight of both arrows shot simultaneously and their impact. The heavy arrow arrives a fraction of a sec later than the lighter one. The time to target on both arrows is longer than the difference between the two impacts. And that was at 60 yds. At 20yds your talking about a micro fraction of a second. There will be almost no difference in impact point if an animal decides to duck if all things are equal. However all things are not equal, a bow shot with a lighter arrow produces a louder sound. It's not the sound but the degree of loudness that causes them to react. A quieter bow will have less of a reaction from the deer. Less of a react is a good thing. Who doesn't want that? You can't beat the speed of sound but you can reduce it. This heavy vs light debate will continue. You obviously know my opinions. They are based on my experiences and those of others that I've bowhunted with over the years. NJ has some very liberal limits. If a guy puts in the time, 20 or 30 deer a year is possible. These guys are some real killers. I'm talking about over 6 decades of bowhunting experience. They probably have close to 1000 bow kills total. I call Pete "the whitetail exterminator". Before the wife and kids, he hunted every day of the season for 4 months. I think he missed 3 days one year. Over 900+ kills total. I would bet half of them are bow kills. Scott has 350+ kills and the majority of those are bow kills. He's 58 and he still put's down 8-10 a year. The others have a 100+ bow kills.. Between the ages of 25 and 35, I put a whupping on them as well. 6 or 8 deer a year. I've slowed down a bit. Only 2 or 3 deer a year since then. I only get 1 buck tag so I concentrate on mature bucks. I don't say this to impress anyone. I say it because they have a VAST amount of knowledge that can be learned from. Personally I Iearned TONS from them. Who doesn't want learn tactics that will help them be more successful?

Ok, sorry you got kicked in the face by a horse, I bet that sucked? I don't know how to put it any better than that. I disagree with you, doesn't mean I can't be empathetic when a horse boots you in the face.

 

[DroptineKrazy]

Ok, sorry you got kicked in the face by a horse, I bet that sucked? I don't know how to put it any better than that. I disagree with you, doesn't mean I can't be empathetic when a horse boots you in the face.

Ahhhhhhh!!! He got what he deserved! Sneakin up on a poor defenseless animal like that

 

[1simplemann]

Think you missed the point of the post. And maybe didn’t read the whole thing.

I appreciate the advice though!

Anyhow, i squared up a branch somewhere between 10-20 yards out at the top of the shot window. My bow, with an arrow shooting 315fps with all else being equal, would’ve passed 2” lower at that distance. Doesn’t seem like a lot. But I miss the branch.

I wasn’t trying to make any point other than that thing is a thing. With a visual demonstration.

Naaa. I got got your point. Crap happens in the woods. I promise you, I read the whole thing. That's why I went upstairs to watch on my big TV. You whacked it pretty good, I still don't think you clear that branch at any speed. Guess we'll never know. Very tough shot and I get why you tried it. You miss 100% of the opportunities that you don't try. I myself would not have had the confidence to make that shot. Nor would I run out and change my set up to 315 fps so that I might make that shot next time. I would simply just trim the branches ahead of time. You didn't mention if that was virgin set up or a dedicated tree that you hunt regularly.

 

[1simplemann]

Ok, sorry you got kicked in the face by a horse, I bet that sucked? I don't know how to put it any better than that. I disagree with you, doesn't mean I can't be empathetic when a horse boots you in the face.

Yes it sucked! My upper lip was split like a snakes tongue. I Can't believe he didn't knock my teeth out. Very miserable ride out. Plus we had just found the elk. I going back to get my rifle. Ruined a good hunt.

 

[kyler1945]

Naaa. I got got your point. Crap happens in the woods. I promise you, I read the whole thing. That's why I went upstairs to watch on my big TV. You whacked it pretty good, I still don't think you clear that branch at any speed. Guess we'll never know. Very tough shot and I get why you tried it. You miss 100% of the opportunities that you don't try. I myself would not have had the confidence to make that shot. Nor would I run out and change my set up to 315 fps so that I might make that shot next time. I would simply just trim the branches ahead of time. You didn't mention if that was virgin set up or a dedicated tree that you hunt regularly.

First and only sit on property you can’t trim trees.

 

[1simplemann]

I call that a virgin hunt. Sometimes They are your best chance. They are tough and good at the same time. Tough because you don't know what to expect or or how they will act. You have to figure it out on the fly. Just like a women. Good because well because they are a virgin. The 1st time is usually the most exciting. I'm assuming public land is why you can't trim.. I would just break em. There's no law against breaking a branch otherwise you wouldn't be able to step a foot into the woods. I've never seen the "branch police" in the woods nor have I ever heard of someone getting in trouble for it. Now is when to do it. The breaks will not be fresh come hunting season and no one will notice. Just say'n!!!