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Why do I fall apart at distance?

Red Beard

Red Beard

Well-Known Member
SH Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2019
Messages
5,540
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in my skin
I've heard it said that one way to get better at close range is to practice at longer ranges. Since I am striving to get better with a stickbow, I've been trying to practice at longer ranges. Problem is, while I consistently murder the deer below at 15yds... I consistently FALL APART at 22-30yds. It's literally like pin the tail on the deer when I step outside. (No seriously, I shot an arrow into the TAIL of my 3D target from 28yds today)

Trying to understand why I'm so grossly off aimpoint when I take shots beyond 20yds - which is my point on distance. Don't hold the punches, but please try to be constructive with suggestions.

For reference, my setup is a 33lb Sage with a 500gr TAW Gold Tip 500 arrow. And yes, things just get more wild at 25yds with my 40lb Sage.
20211028_205143.jpg
 
I shot a recurve for years. Past around 20 yards, almost no one can do it the way G Fred Asbell shows them. Most people have to develop rigorous form and eliminate every thing that is not easy to repeat and start doing things like research Olympic recurve form. Then you have to start developing an aiming system using your arrow or a part of the riser in relation to the target. The tradtalk forum was big on helping people do this, back in the day.
 
Without watching your form, I'd guess that there may be some tuning issues with your arrows or you are not "picking your spot" at range. I find this to be an issue if I lose confidence personally. I guess I'd boil down to whether the shot "feels" good (tuning / release) or if you just aren't hitting where you want (focus on the spot).

(BTW, I'm hunting my EVO this weekend)
Sean
 
raisins said:
I shot a recurve for years. Past around 20 yards, almost no one can do it the way G Fred Asbell shows them. Most people have to develop rigorous form and eliminate every thing that is not easy to repeat and start doing things like research Olympic recurve form. Then you have to start developing an aiming system using your arrow or a part of the riser in relation to the target. The tradtalk forum was big on helping people do this, back in the day.
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Thank you! Let's dive into that! How does G Fred Asbell show?

Funny thing is that I'm basically instinctive (imagine where I need to align vertically based on what my mind says the trajectory will be) out to 20yds. Then at 20 I start to use an actual aiming method from there to 30yds. At 20yds, the tip of my arrow equates to point of impact. After 20 though I have to institute a holdover with a gap that progresses as I walk backward.
 
WECoyote said:
Without watching your form, I'd guess that there may be some tuning issues with your arrows or you are not "picking your spot" at range. I find this to be an issue if I lose confidence personally. I guess I'd boil down to whether the shot "feels" good (tuning / release) or if you just aren't hitting where you want (focus on the spot).
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Yeah. For sure confidence goes straight out the window as soon as I get past 22-ish yards. I think it may be more of a focus issue for me. One out of every three arrows are in the vitals when flinging from 28-30yds. The others are wild though... always at the tail end of a deer walking right-to-left. Keep in mind that I'm a lefty.
 
One thing that Byron Ferguson talks about that may apply to to you if you consistently miss to one side or the other, is to consider how much you cant the bow. He says in "Become the Arrow" and I've come to agree with him, is that a consistent amount of cant is needed to keep the arrow under your eye. If you are aiming (gapping) and your release is solid, I'd play with a little different cant to hit where you want.
 
I'd guess it has something to do with you just psyching yourself out. I had a difficult time at first shooting at 30 yards (my point on is 25 yards) but I just kept telling myself to keep good form and shot sequence, trust my aiming point (for this range it was top of the deer) and follow through. I also noticed shooting at a larger target helped because I was more focused on the shot and not worried about sending one over the target or into the grass. I think the biggest thing is to focus on your form and to trust it. The only difference between shooting a 10 yard shot and a 30 yard shot is the aiming point. Hope this is somewhat helpful
 
WECoyote said:
One thing that Byron Ferguson talks about that may apply to to you if you consistently miss to one side or the other, is to consider how much you cant the bow. He says in "Become the Arrow" and I've come to agree with him, is that a consistent amount of cant is needed to keep the arrow under your eye. If you are aiming (gapping) and your release is solid, I'd play with a little different cant to hit where you want.
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Wow. Might be something to that! For some reason I do find myself canting more when outdoors.
 
With a vertical bow do your arrows impact in a vertical line? I think you might be overspined. Have you bareshafted an arrow?
 
Red Beard said:
What issues would be the cause of arrows impacting right of aim for a lefty?
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Bad spine or poor release. I had a similar issue even when I thought I was shooting bullseyes at 15 yards I started to notice a right of aim at 20+ After slow motion video I determined that the arrow was not flying straight like I thought. A cleaner release tamed it some but ultimately the getting the right spine arrows put me hitting right where I was aiming at 20-25. It’s always something with these stick bows though! Keep shooting and tweaking I’m sure you’ll get it!
 
Red Beard said:
What issues would be the cause of arrows impacting right of aim for a lefty?
Click to expand...
Also, that was over spined for me. Bare shaft at 5-10 yards that was a nock left. I simply added weight until the nock was center instead of tilted left. Made a huge difference at my longer distances 20-25 which were practical unnoticeable at closer ranges. No telling if something similar is happen with you or not.
 
A few points to ponder.
If you vary the cant on your bow it will impact more or less in windage(capt. obvious)I'm not a fan of the cant.

Next, when your reach point on, beyond that the arrow falls like a stone. That means that your point of aim is more critical combined with range estimation. This produces highs and lows but line should be good.

I shoot vertical and make sure the right side of my point appears to contact the string. It takes a little practice to get used to making it happen. If you try this you may find your shots print weak and need tuning or replacing.
The reason for doing this is it eliminates windage variation out of the sight picture.
If the tip is out in space away from the string you get more variation based on angle of departure.
Theres afew things else I would metion but I am not instinctive.
I will that I see a gap below my target like about 14 inches, But I am looking at the target and see the gap. Now that gap travels through all distaces.
No matter the size of the target I just apply(see) the gap.
Any gap at close range is closer to scale than one at long range. Look at a long shot and immediately see the gap. It may seem like 3 inches from where you stand but if you went down there and put your finger at the low point it would be to scale. Right.

Also if you find yourself focusing on tip of the arrow you will miss left or right.
The target doubles in you field of view and no matter which you aim at you are wrong so you will hit wide eespectively.
 
Ideas to ponder…
It doesn’t sound like you are shooting consistently at distances over 20 yards, which is where I understand that you transition from “instinctive” to gap aiming. So my guess is that you are losing good form and follow through because you are timing your release or worse, forcing the shot, instead of trusting some “float” in the sight picture. Crazy arrows tend to be forced shots in my experience. As distance increases it is harder to establish an aiming point and then let your subconcious “watch it to keep it” (Turner). But this is necessary so you can focus on your complete shot process instead of chasing a perfect sight picture.
Shoot a dozen or so arrows each practice session “blind bail”, with no spot to aim at. I like to close my eyes and focus on each part of my form. Actually I don’t enjoy this, but it is instructive! Maybe try shooting your typical point on / “instinctive” way at longer ranges for a while. You arrows will hit low… but do they group well? You may gain some insight by doing these things.
Are you in alignment, form-wise? Where does your string hand end up after the shot? How about your bow hand? It’s a worthy exercise to have someone film you from above and behind while shooting. I chose to hire a coach and go pretty deep to learn a shooting form that is rooted in full alignment. I am glad I did that. I am a lefty and when my arrows land right it’s a sure bet that I have oozed out of alignment.
Nice grouping in the posted pic. The fact that you are working on longer shots is a success in itself, congrat’s!
 
Fozzie Bear said:
Ideas to ponder…
It doesn’t sound like you are shooting consistently at distances over 20 yards, which is where I understand that you transition from “instinctive” to gap aiming. So my guess is that you are losing good form and follow through because you are timing your release or worse, forcing the shot, instead of trusting some “float” in the sight picture. Crazy arrows tend to be forced shots in my experience. As distance increases it is harder to establish an aiming point and then let your subconcious “watch it to keep it” (Turner). But this is necessary so you can focus on your complete shot process instead of chasing a perfect sight picture.
Shoot a dozen or so arrows each practice session “blind bail”, with no spot to aim at. I like to close my eyes and focus on each part of my form. Actually I don’t enjoy this, but it is instructive! Maybe try shooting your typical point on / “instinctive” way at longer ranges for a while. You arrows will hit low… but do they group well? You may gain some insight by doing these things.
Are you in alignment, form-wise? Where does your string hand end up after the shot? How about your bow hand? It’s a worthy exercise to have someone film you from above and behind while shooting. I chose to hire a coach and go pretty deep to learn a shooting form that is rooted in full alignment. I am glad I did that. I am a lefty and when my arrows land right it’s a sure bet that I have oozed out of alignment.
Nice grouping in the posted pic. The fact that you are working on longer shots is a success in itself, congrat’s!
Click to expand...

This.

@Red Beard, if you're wild arrows are inconsistent but always right of the target and being a lefty, it makes me think you are collapsing on the shot. I agree with everything @Fozzie Bear said above. You were telling me that you were having success with Kavanaugh's method of using your ear as a secondary anchor. My guess is on those good shots you're thinking about pulling through the shot and touching your ear and on the flyers you're focused on where the point of your arrow is and not thinking about pulling through the shot as much.

Personally, this is why I have never had much success with a gap aiming method. The second I start trying to pay attention to my arrow my form goes to pot. I'm sure it's something I could work through if I kept at it but, it takes all the time I have just to stay consistent under 20 yards.
 
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