Electric bikes

[Ontariofarmer]

https://ebikebc.com/mid-drive-vs-hub-motor/

Another I read the other night.

 

[Cajunshooter]

You are correct. I looked at several links at midnight the other night. I guess I picked a poor one.

Here is another one. But I am certain you know more than I do. You certainly stimulated my thinking the other night. I really do not claim to be an expert at all. Just have experience with one bike.

https://pedegoelectricbikes.ca/electric-bike-hub-motors-vs-mid-drive/

I’m glad I was able to stimulate your thinking. It doesn’t mean you made a bad choice for you! There are very significant differences that need to be noted depending on what you purposes are.


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[Ontariofarmer]

I guess they said the same thing as you "its about selecting the right fit for your application" They probably know more than me too. I don't have mountains to climb - just hills. Sorry I do not know why this font is larger. I am not shouting or anything like that.

Mid-drive Vs Hub motor
There is a loud noise out there about the Mid-drive motors as if it is the novel e-bike technology going to take over the hub motors; However that’s not true. EbikeBC offers both Mid-drive and Geared hub motors so there is no commercial bios on this evaluation. Remember it is not about the Good and Bad; It’s about selecting the right fit for your application.
Geared hub motor is the best fit for over 92% of the US and Canadian electric bike commuters and pleasure or sport cyclists. There are a few applications which really need to lean toward mid-drive motor, but if you are not in that group don’t trade reliability and maintenance free feature of the geared hub motors with anything.

 

[Cajunshooter]

I guess they said the same thing as you "its about selecting the right fit for your application"

Mid-drive Vs Hub motor
There is a loud noise out there about the Mid-drive motors as if it is the novel e-bike technology going to take over the hub motors; However that’s not true. EbikeBC offers both Mid-drive and Geared hub motors so there is no commercial bios on this evaluation. Remember it is not about the Good and Bad; It’s about selecting the right fit for your application. Table bellow compares 2 similar motors of the 2 types at the maximum street legal power.









Mid-drive

(BAFANG BBS02 500W)




Geared Hub Motor

(EbikeBC 500W)

Power 500W Rated, 800W peak power 500W Rated, 800W peak power
Speed Up to 40km/h without speed limit setting Up to 40km/h without speed limit setting
Torque at the wheel 100Nm peak if used in the lowest gear of bike with the 1:1 ratio 80Nm Peak no matter what gear is selected
Grade climbing ~25% with a 75KG rider without pedaling ~20% with a 75KG rider without pedaling
Weight 4.5Kg 3.3Kg
Pedal assist behavior Motion sensor Motion sensor
Ease of installation Needs special tools and transmission adjustment skills No special tools, No transmission interfere
Adaptability to various bikes Bottom brackets of 68,73mm with no chain Mud-guard support 100mm, 135mm, 165mm axle length with 10mm drops out forks. Does not work on Thru-axles forks
Ease of maintenance Motor and Transmission need frequent maintenance, adjustment and replacement of parts Maintenance free
Durability and Reliability Since the power and tension is adding up with the muscle tension and transferred through the chain to the rear cassette of freewheel, the stress and wear is much more than normal and the transmission is subjected to wear and breakage; especially when used in the improper gear or improper change of the gears. Much more Reliable and durable with no mechanical part engaged in transmission. The motor’s internal parts are dis-engaged by the internal clutch when the motor is not in use. So the worst case scenario in case of a defect the motor acts as a set of ball bearings.
Dynamics Motor weight is attached to the frame and the wheels have the normal weight The difference between the regular hub and the hub motor weight is added to the wheel mass
Free wheeling 100% free wheels when motor is not assisting 100% free wheels when motor is not assisting with no gears noise or magnetic cogging torque.
Protection degree Said to be IP65, IP54 in fact IP65
Best Applications Full suspension bikes, for bike jumping, downhill and mountain biking.
Special trikes, quadrabents, thru-axle bikes which cannot take a hub motor. Any application such as commuting, leisure activity, trails, gravel, dirt or snow, sport, touring which the bike can take the hub motor.
Geared hub motor is the best fit for over 92% of the US and Canadian electric bike commuters and pleasure or sport cyclists. There are a few applications which really need to lean toward mid-drive motor, but if you are not in that group don’t trade reliability and maintenance free feature of the geared hub motors with anything.

Here’s the other problem. All these articles are comparing older technology. For instances Bafang now has a mid-drive 1000 watt motor 52v (meant for off road only) which is not available in Europe and maybe not Canada.

So the motor is twice the power of most, plus you get to select the gearing for your needs (go fast or climbing hills) and now you have the best of both worlds. But you have to be pretty mechanically inclined to make the changes and take care of maintenance of the gears or you’ll be in the bike shop some. This is the way I’m going to go.


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[Ontariofarmer]

Here’s the other problem. All these articles are comparing older technology. For instances Bafang now has a mid-drive 1000 watt motor 52v (meant for off road only) which is not available in Europe and maybe not Canada.

So the motor is twice the power of most, plus you get to select the gearing for your needs (go fast or climbing hills) and now you have the best of both worlds. But you have to be pretty mechanically inclined to make the changes and take care of maintenance of the gears or you’ll be in the bike shop some. This is the way I’m going to go.


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Interesting. Sounds like it will work for you. I think we can use your bike here so long as it does not go over 30 km per hour. It has to be governed to limit speed or it is considered a motorcycle requiring insurance and licence. That is the situation in Ontario. Every province is different.
I guess for me I have the right bike for me. I have no problem going up hills here and I have a very low maintenance off road bike.
For your situation your bike must be a blast. Literally

 

[sb220]

you guys need to realize those guys in the links above are trying to sell you something. Pay attention to forums, user comments and reviews. This is still a cottage/diy industry

BBSHD is the one to get for a good diy trail bike from everything Ive read on endless sphere and youtube

 

[Ontariofarmer]

you guys need to realize those guys in the links above are trying to sell you something. Pay attention to forums, user comments and reviews. This is still a cottage/diy industry

BBSHD is the one to get for a good diy trail bike from everything Ive read on endless sphere and youtube

Maybe true but Magna International is huge and not a mickey mouse cottage diy industrial company. Neither is Bosch.
Magna is one of the biggest auto part manufacturers in the world.

My bike motor is made by Magna. The battery is a Panasonic.
I read somewhere that there are 100 million e bikes in China. Bafang might be ok too because of this fact.

The guys who put them together may be small but the last two posts are by people who sell both types of bikes.
I know on the internet it is hard to know what to believe. After reading a fair bit I am sure my bike is very very reliable. And has good torque low maintenance. I expect you guys will get great bikes to suit your needs.
A high wattage bike will probably greatly reduce you range. It will kill your battery very fast. But maybe it will take you up that mountain. You can coast back down.

 

[sb220]

And that’s not saying hub motors are bad. I’ve seen threads about 10000 watt speed demons that are hub motors. Guys running dual batteries to power hub motors in both wheels and would put any mid drive to shame most likely.
I think the simple fact that the middrives take advantage of the bikes gears is why most diyers prefer them for hilly off-road terrain. Doesn’t mean it’s the only way

 

[Ontariofarmer]

And that’s not saying hub motors are bad. I’ve seen threads about 10000 watt speed demons that are hub motors. Guys running dual batteries to power hub motors in both wheels and would put any mid drive to shame most likely.
I think the simple fact that the middrives take advantage of the bikes gears is why most diyers prefer them for hilly off-road terrain. Doesn’t mean it’s the only way

Sounds like a cool bike.
My rear hub has torque sensors that increase the motor use based and resistance I think. Almost like an automatic transmission. So the motor use is increased automatically according to needed torque. I know when I pedal the motor does alot less work and drains the battery alot slower.
I have now read that a mid drive does climb about 20% better than a hub drive if everything is equal.I don't know if that is correct but that is what I have read.
I also can gear up or down when I have to and the motor senses torque and engages the motor in response to needs.
Maybe I misunderstood what I read.

 

[sb220]

some hub motors are referred to as geared and some are called direct drive hub motors.
Maybe yours has some kind of transmission in there

 

[Ontariofarmer]

Our latest proof of technology is the BionX D-Series motor.

The new distinctive design has enabled our engineering team to think outside of the box and come up with great technical solutions that further promote the BionX DNA of noise and vibration free motors with generate/regenerative braking mode and our proven strain gauge technology. The D-series motor is extremely sporty, lightweight and powerful – sticking to our principle, where an ebike has to ride and feel like a bicycle.

• Nominal power: 200W (AU & UK), 250W (EU), 500W (NA)
• Torque: 25/50 Nm (18.4/36.9lb-ft)
• Weight: 4.0kg (8.8 lb)
• Brushless, gearless
• Generate mode for energy recuperation
• Integrated torque sensor

Read more about regen systems on ebikes

One drawback of a regen system, is that it is said that the bike will not free wheel as effectively, because the motor will always have some drag even when coasting. On the Bionx bike it seemed to freewheel perfectly when regen was at the lowest setting, and I did not notice any extra drag compared to a regular bike.

Torque Sensor

The BionX has the torque sensor integrated into the motor axle. The BionX patented torque sensor is known to be one of the best in the industry. Also the BionX software is spot on. This all equates to a really fine pedal assist experience. The BionX does a terrific job of blending electric assist with your pedaling power.

Read our story on torque sensors.

If you use your torque sensor wisely, the BionX will force you to not to be lazy, and you will always have to input some power if you want electric assist. This will vastly increase your range. The less pedal-assist you use, the farther you will go. If you ride only in the pedal assist mode, the BionX motor comes on so smoothly you can barely feel it. Its easy to forget you are riding on an electric bike when you ride this way, you simply feel like a super athlete when bicycling…

Some of what I have read

 

[sb220]

Took my bike out today and had a blast besides a sore butt. I'm thinking about a big comfy, grandpa cruiser seat....itll make the bike look so dumb though

First off, I cheaped out on my charger and opted for Luna cycles basic charger to save money. It has no display or gauge telling you battery percentage. I have a tester button on the battery itself that lights up 4 lights depending on charge level. Same thing on the cheapest display you can get from bafang/luna....4 bars. Its not exact at all, but I'm guessing 4 bars is anything over 75%. I will probably upgrade my charger or look for a way to incorporate a simple voltage meter

I'm guessing I started out with just over 75% battery charge because it dropped to 3 bars on the display within the 1st 100 yards and never returned to 4 bars. The display battery gauge jumps around when youre drawing power. You seem to get the accurate battery level reading when the motor isn't running.
So after dropping that battery bar to 3 within the first 100 yards I was a little concerned about battery capacity so I was trying to conserve/manage power by using the mid pedal assist on the slight inclines... punching the throttle for the steeper stuff ...and clicking the pedal assist to 0 on straight-aways and downhills.
6.5 miles later (tracking with onx) the battery was still reading 3 bars, so I assume I didn't have it charged up much past 75% to begin with.

At that point I was at the bottom on a long hill...almost a 1/2 mile incline with roughly 500 feet of 9.4% grade at its steepest (if I did the math correct) and I was 1.5 miles from the truck. No more pedaling, I just gunned the throttle and managed the gears while the bike ate that 1.5 for lunch.
Went up that 1/2 mile hill at a steady 7 mph in the biggest granny gear, but would gain a few mph dropping gears as the hill would occasionally weaken.
The last half of that 1.5 was a straight shot and I was getting up to 19mph with my 30t chain ring. It was fast.... I couldn't imagine going much faster. Guys on you tube hitting 30 and 40 is insane.

Did that 1.5 mile in six minutes and my battery had dropped from 3 to 2 bars. I do wish my display and charger gave an accurate battery % though, if you can afford upgrading those options, it would be nice

This thing is awesome fun. I've got a couple really steep hills (if memory serves me right) that I'm going to try....I think its going to eat them up too. It didn't hesitate on anything today

Also back at the truck, I felt the motor and it was barely lukewarm. As far as noise, you could hear it whirring a little, but hard to differentiate it from chain and tire noise
I did follow a youtube tutorial on removing the motor cover and packing the main gears full of moly grease.....which I assume would help with heat and noise

 

[sb220]

Another cool thing on these bafangs is there is a walking mode. Say you hook a trailer up to it and youre pulling out gear and a deer.

If you get to an incline or log that you cant ride over with all that weight, you can get off and hold down the minus button on the pedal assist control. It runs the motor on a low walking speed(granny gear = slower), so you can use it to mule your trailer over obstacles

 

[KartShot]

Another cool thing on these bafangs is there is a walking mode. Say you hook a trailer up to it and youre pulling out gear and a deer.

If you get to an incline or log that you cant ride over with all that weight, you can get off and hold down the minus button on the pedal assist control. It runs the motor on a low walking speed(granny gear = slower), so you can use it to mule your trailer over obstacles

Thanks for the update. This has me super excited to get mine done.

 

[sb220]

Thanks for the update. This has me super excited to get mine done.

Now to figure out how to attach my deer cart and get a fat buddy to lay on it while I pull him around. fat buddy is no problem.....trying to imagine a rack hook up that wont be noisy and jerky, plus allow a full pivot

 

[sb220]

another tip..put your throttle on opposite side of handlebars that your shifter is on

My throttle is on left here...power/pedal assist and gear shift is on right

You want to be able to hold the throttle with one thumb and work the shifter with the other.

 

[Cajunshooter]

Took my bike out today and had a blast besides a sore butt. I'm thinking about a big comfy, grandpa cruiser seat....itll make the bike look so dumb though

First off, I cheaped out on my charger and opted for Luna cycles basic charger to save money. It has no display or gauge telling you battery percentage. I have a tester button on the battery itself that lights up 4 lights depending on charge level. Same thing on the cheapest display you can get from bafang/luna....4 bars. Its not exact at all, but I'm guessing 4 bars is anything over 75%. I will probably upgrade my charger or look for a way to incorporate a simple voltage meter

I'm guessing I started out with just over 75% battery charge because it dropped to 3 bars on the display within the 1st 100 yards and never returned to 4 bars. The display battery gauge jumps around when youre drawing power. You seem to get the accurate battery level reading when the motor isn't running.
So after dropping that battery bar to 3 within the first 100 yards I was a little concerned about battery capacity so I was trying to conserve/manage power by using the mid pedal assist on the slight inclines... punching the throttle for the steeper stuff ...and clicking the pedal assist to 0 on straight-aways and downhills.
6.5 miles later (tracking with onx) the battery was still reading 3 bars, so I assume I didn't have it charged up much past 75% to begin with.

At that point I was at the bottom on a long hill...almost a 1/2 mile incline with roughly 500 feet of 9.4% grade at its steepest (if I did the math correct) and I was 1.5 miles from the truck. No more pedaling, I just gunned the throttle and managed the gears while the bike ate that 1.5 for lunch.
Went up that 1/2 mile hill at a steady 7 mph in the biggest granny gear, but would gain a few mph dropping gears as the hill would occasionally weaken.
The last half of that 1.5 was a straight shot and I was getting up to 19mph with my 30t chain ring. It was fast.... I couldn't imagine going much faster. Guys on you tube hitting 30 and 40 is insane.

Did that 1.5 mile in six minutes and my battery had dropped from 3 to 2 bars. I do wish my display and charger gave an accurate battery % though, if you can afford upgrading those options, it would be nice

This thing is awesome fun. I've got a couple really steep hills (if memory serves me right) that I'm going to try....I think its going to eat them up too. It didn't hesitate on anything today

Also back at the truck, I felt the motor and it was barely lukewarm. As far as noise, you could hear it whirring a little, but hard to differentiate it from chain and tire noise
I did follow a youtube tutorial on removing the motor cover and packing the main gears full of moly grease.....which I assume would help with heat and noise

These are some good tips and a very exciting ride report!

Were you able to exchange the 30t chain ring for the standard chain ring that usually comes with it? I’m assuming you chose the 30t specifically because of your ability to climb hills?

I think I’m going to go with your suggestions on the charger and display.

I can’t wait to get this done.


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[sb220]

no I had to buy the 30t chain ring separate. The 42-48ish rings come from bafang with the motors, so probably why they are the only options in the packages.

 

[Cajunshooter]

I finally ordered my kit. I cannot wait to get it together!
Sb220 you have any other experience/update on yours?


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[sb220]

nah the weekends have been crappy weather wise lately....plus I'm getting all my bass stuff ready (buying stuff I don't need)

I do want to get it out again soon against a very steep hill or two, but this weekend is looking cold and raining again though