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Jibber-Jabberin' about Carbon Fiber Bolts

Murph4028 said:
Safety is taken very seriously on this site. Anytime an idea old or new pops up on here you always got more than a few people looking out for you letting you know if what your about to do is stupid. There's nothing you can do about someone who reads the first line of a thread and goes out and buys a set of carbon bolts before reading warnings about what could happen. That being said most people on here have their own idea of what's acceptably safe and what isn't. There's a lot of different approaches for what we do on here. Mistakes do happen and will continue to happen. But I think the new members who are new to saddle hunting are very well set up with useful information on safety that was learned through the trial and error conducted by the members of this site if they are willing to read through the information and not just look at pictures.
Click to expand...
Im going to disagree here, Im pretty new to saddle hunting though I've worked my way to it learning a lot on my own , on the way. Safety is always my concern, it always has been FOR MYSELF. There are a lot of new people who are way greener then me on this site and now on the facebook site. Not that any question is stupid , yet I see a lot of questions being asked that are common sense to me, yet time and time again I see people ( they are all around me ) without common sense!!!!!!!!!!!!
You have to think , there could be a kid who is 15 reading this and he may think its a cool idea, yet he may not have all the knowledge of safety in his head or been taught about it! I see guys assuming most people who saddle hunt have common knowledge. Well tree stand accidents happen yearly of people who don't use common sense, and don't use safety measures! Once you leave the ground, anything can happen! I do think there is an area here where guys are going to try to find the lightest and craziest ways to climb a tree. I'm wondering if @redsquirrel there shouldn't be an area marked as dangerous climbing methods or risky business climbing. There reason is, guys are discussing the methods but they are dangerous, lets be serious just because you put a disclaimer that it is dangerous, does it really help when the kid without common sense decides to try your method and falls , hell even the old guy like me who is saying to himself , that sounds awesome. There has to be some thought about what we are posting, could someone get hurt? I'm not saying @Nutterbuster is wrong for posting this as he is using it, the question is, is it safe should it be posted, or should there be something saying over and over this is DANGEROUS!!!!!!! I think some of the guys here jump to defend and go at the person saying hey wait a minute is this safe? What we are doing is dangerous, it doesn't matter if we are saddle hunting or trees stand hunting or recreational climbing, it is dangerous. I'm really concerned about the facebook page as it has opened up a can of worms, there are so many newbie saddle want to be's on there , I was headed down this road for the past six years before I came across saddle hunting due to DIY sportsmen and my trying to find a better way to get to the places I hunt. I didn't think I would be sitting here reading a forum trust me. Let alone considering sewing! So take the time to think about the guys just getting into this, these guys don't know anything and they will do things if you tell them this is the latest greatest idea! Which even a five step aider is dangerous!!!! yet the guys suggest it on here and I see guys posting I just got my five WE steps and five step aider and ordered my saddle today. By the way how do you set that WE step up ? Do you get what I'm saying? Maybe I'm wrong!
 
Mike Nutto said:
Im going to disagree here, Im pretty new to saddle hunting though I've worked my way to it learning a lot on my own , on the way. Safety is always my concern, it always has been FOR MYSELF. There are a lot of new people who are way greener then me on this site and now on the facebook site. .................................................. I'm really concerned about the facebook page as it has opened up a can of worms, there are so many newbie saddle want to be's on there , I was headed down this road for the past six years before I came across saddle hunting due to DIY sportsmen and my trying to find a better way to get to the places I hunt. I didn't think I would be sitting here reading a forum trust me. Let alone considering sewing! So take the time to think about the guys just getting into this, these guys don't know anything and they will do things if you tell them this is the latest greatest idea! Which even a five step aider is dangerous!!!! yet the guys suggest it on here and I see guys posting I just got my five WE steps and five step aider and ordered my saddle today. By the way how do you set that WE step up ? Do you get what I'm saying? Maybe I'm wrong!
Click to expand...
Not that @Mike Nutto is necessarily implying that it is, but just a reminder:

** Please remember this site is 100% independent of the Facebook Site and independent of all manufacturers and other sites **
 
Vtbow said:
Not that @Mike Nutto is necessarily implying that it is, but just a reminder:

** Please remember this site is 100% independent of the Facebook Site and independent of all manufacturers and other sites **
Click to expand...
I do understand that , I'm just saying I'm concerned because, the same guys posting there are posting on here as well

Sent from my E6810 using Tapatalk
 
Mike Nutto said:
I do understand that , I'm just saying I'm concerned because, the same guys posting there are posting on here as well

Sent from my E6810 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Thanks Mike. I figured you did, but there are a LOT of new people whom don't necessarily know this ...
 
Vtbow said:
Thanks Mike. I figured you did, but there are a LOT of new people whom don't necessarily know this ...
Click to expand...
I totally get it , I'm just concerned to a degree , you know treestand companies face tons of litigation for falls , and go out of business ,and I'm serious about my saddle hunting , so I really don't want to see any of these companies or even this site go away.
I mean how awesome is this site alone, yet could something happen it does concern me. I use to mountain bike and had to take a friend to the hospital once trust me it was a scary thing to have happen, which in general I would consider more dangerous then saddle hunting but that said danger is always present in this activity

Sent from my E6810 using Tapatalk
 
Mike Nutto said:
Im going to disagree here, Im pretty new to saddle hunting though I've worked my way to it learning a lot on my own , on the way. Safety is always my concern, it always has been FOR MYSELF. There are a lot of new people who are way greener then me on this site and now on the facebook site. Not that any question is stupid , yet I see a lot of questions being asked that are common sense to me, yet time and time again I see people ( they are all around me ) without common sense!!!!!!!!!!!!
You have to think , there could be a kid who is 15 reading this and he may think its a cool idea, yet he may not have all the knowledge of safety in his head or been taught about it! I see guys assuming most people who saddle hunt have common knowledge. Well tree stand accidents happen yearly of people who don't use common sense, and don't use safety measures! Once you leave the ground, anything can happen! I do think there is an area here where guys are going to try to find the lightest and craziest ways to climb a tree. I'm wondering if @redsquirrel there shouldn't be an area marked as dangerous climbing methods or risky business climbing. There reason is, guys are discussing the methods but they are dangerous, lets be serious just because you put a disclaimer that it is dangerous, does it really help when the kid without common sense decides to try your method and falls , hell even the old guy like me who is saying to himself , that sounds awesome. There has to be some thought about what we are posting, could someone get hurt? I'm not saying @Nutterbuster is wrong for posting this as he is using it, the question is, is it safe should it be posted, or should there be something saying over and over this is DANGEROUS!!!!!!! I think some of the guys here jump to defend and go at the person saying hey wait a minute is this safe? What we are doing is dangerous, it doesn't matter if we are saddle hunting or trees stand hunting or recreational climbing, it is dangerous. I'm really concerned about the facebook page as it has opened up a can of worms, there are so many newbie saddle want to be's on there , I was headed down this road for the past six years before I came across saddle hunting due to DIY sportsmen and my trying to find a better way to get to the places I hunt. I didn't think I would be sitting here reading a forum trust me. Let alone considering sewing! So take the time to think about the guys just getting into this, these guys don't know anything and they will do things if you tell them this is the latest greatest idea! Which even a five step aider is dangerous!!!! yet the guys suggest it on here and I see guys posting I just got my five WE steps and five step aider and ordered my saddle today. By the way how do you set that WE step up ? Do you get what I'm saying? Maybe I'm wrong!
Click to expand...

Therein lies the rub. Saddle hunters used to be a small group of guys that used this site as a way to innovate and develop solutions to their problems because there was nothing commercially available. I joined the site at the very tail end of this. Now, saddle hunting is growing and more people are getting involved. This obviously increases the likelihood that somebody is going to do something stupid. So what are our choices? Moving some posts to a "dangerous" section isn't going to stop the kid with no common sense from trying it. If he's not reading the countless disclaimers posted with each thread, he's not paying any attention to a forum title. I could even see things being in a "dangerous"section adding a "cool factor" and increasing the likelihood of the same kid trying it. So what is the solution? Does all innovation and sharing of information stop because somebody might do something stupid?

There are many things posted on this site that I have no desire to use myself. The Knaider/Swaider. Carbon bolts. 5 step aiders. None of these things are for me. But, I have witnessed many things on this site start out as one person's idea and then develop into something amazing that works for everyone. The second people stop posting their ideas this innovation ends.
 
@PAhunter78, I'll definitely take you up on that drink if you ever make it down to Alabama. I'm not at all offended. I agree and disagree with you though.

Safety is important, yes. Mistakes, miscalculations, and system failures at height can maim or kill you. Each member should be very concerned about his/her own safety, obviously. While I absolutely reject the idea that I have an obligation to look out for you, I believe that people who look out for others are better than people who don't, and I try to "love my brother." We seem to agree here.

I have 0 problem with people calling it like they see it when it comes to a device or technique that I use. You are correct that carbon bolts are not made for climbing. I don't believe that I have ever said otherwise. They are not "safe" according to any officially recognized regulating body that is an authority on climbing.

And that brings up a can of worms.

I would say at least 90% of the ideas, techniques, and products mentioned on this forum would NOT be "safe" according to industry standards. Examples?

Tethrd's mantis is not TMA approved for use as a treestand harness. It is not approved for use as an arborist's saddle. It is not certified as a rock climbing harness. Is it safe?

Amsteel is not considered acceptable in any industry that I am aware of for life support. Arborists do not use it for such. Rock climbers do not use it for such. Rescue personnel do not use it for such. Why? Because it's "not safe."

The ropeman 1 is not considered safe for primary life support. Call the manufacturer if you'd like. Look it up on their site. It's not rated for 23kn. But tell me how many times do you see a pic on here with a ropeman not backed up, or backed up in a manner that would not circumvented failure of the component? Not safe.

Every single modified climbing stick is considered "not safe" by the manufacturer, and in the American judicial system. There's a reason most sticks utilize 17.5" step spacing. Because there's an ANSI reg that says longer steps can be dangerous. So all those 24" heliums and beast sticks are "not safe."

8mm cordage as a tether? Go to an arborist forum and tell them that's what you're using as life support in a tree. Let me know what they tell you. "Not safe."

Every single treesuit, guidos web, anderson saddle and trophyline saddle is out of date and no longer certifiable at this point. Not safe.

Modified spurs with aluminum g-hooks? Not safe.

That's just products! Heck, the whole idea of a lone individual climbing at height without a buddy is "not safe" according to every industry standard I can think of. Do we wear helmets, gloves, long shirts/pants, and eyewear every time we climb? Arborists and pole workers do, to keep them safe. And they won't even climb a tree unless they have to in most cases. Best practices means a bucket truck or ground work wherever possible. Deer can be killed from the ground, so aren't we inducing undue risk?

At saddlepalooza, I saw a WHOLE lot of "not safe." Children on spurs. Possible entrapment from multistep aiders. Kots of slips and slides that woukd make a safety inspector ask "Who the heck certified that guy to climb?"

It's been discussed ad-nauseum that what we do is similar to, but not the equivalent of, the indistries I mention. We borrow from their standards, and oftentimes break their rules willy-nilly. There is no "saddlehunters safety association" with official guidelines and definitions of safe. Probably never will be.

So we have a group of enthusiastic, but mostly ignorant ( from a technical standpoint) group of guys on the interwebs that share what they know and what they use. A forum. Not a regulatory body.

A forum works on the idea of freely sharing information. That us what I have done. Anybody and everybody is welcome to critique, comment on, or improve upon anything I post. I have always tried to provide appropriate disclaimers, and have never to my knowledge told somebody to "just do it." I've called out what I thought was questionable practices myself. I honestly have no problem with discussion and debate.

I do have an issue if anybody short of mods or the page admin is telling me what I can and can't post. I believe carbon bolts, used carefully and with appropriate safety measures, are safe for me to use. I am excited by their light weight. People ask me about them, and I answer to the best of my knowledge. I don't lie. I don't sell them. I have no skin in the game. My quality of life remains the same whether you use them or not.

My opinion on them is personal, unofficial, and amateur. I advertise it as such.

If you don't like them, that's your personal, unofficial, amateur opinion. And that's fine. I talk, you talk. Conversation stays civil. People form opinions. Life goes on.

I'm not the safety police, and I don't need others to be safety police for me. There is no saddlehunting safety police! Everything on here is caveat-emptor, use at your own risk, advice.

@PAhunter78, I know that's a mouthful. It's not directed so much at you specifically as it is the community at large. We're friends. :)

Mods and admin, if there's an issue with discussing carbon bolts, or any other "non standard" practices, let me know. That's not a gauntlet throw: I enjoy the community and want the community to enjoy me.

Sorry for the longwindedness, but this has come up more than once. That's my spiel, I'm done, it's off my chest. Goose-frabba.

I'mma go see if people have posted more pics of small boats now.
 
PAhunter78 said:
Carbon fiber bolts are dangerous and should not be promoted as a safe climbing method for any age or body type. The one thing that disturbes me on this site is the race for finding the lightest method to climb a tree. This is suppose to be the year of safety for saddle hunter and when I see people taking items that were not meant to climb a tree ie. carbon rods, T screws, bolts in holes and promoting them I don’t feel we are living up to that. Many people do things that they MAY feel are safe but should keep those methods/ideas to themselves. I would hate to see someone new to saddle hunting (growing now more than ever) getting injured by ideas promoted by people who have no certification, safety testing on the devices they are personally using. Sorry NutterBuster nothing personal. Have a drink on me.
Click to expand...
I have to ask:

What climbing methods have you used? And how do you certify them as "safe"?
 
GCTerpfan said:
Therein lies the rub. Saddle hunters used to be a small group of guys that used this site as a way to innovate and develop solutions to their problems because there was nothing commercially available. I joined the site at the very tail end of this. Now, saddle hunting is growing and more people are getting involved. This obviously increases the likelihood that somebody is going to do something stupid. So what are our choices? Moving some posts to a "dangerous" section isn't going to stop the kid with no common sense from trying it. If he's not reading the countless disclaimers posted with each thread, he's not paying any attention to a forum title. I could even see things being in a "dangerous"section adding a "cool factor" and increasing the likelihood of the same kid trying it. So what is the solution? Does all innovation and sharing of information stop because somebody might do something stupid?

There are many things posted on this site that I have no desire to use myself. The Knaider/Swaider. Carbon bolts. 5 step aiders. None of these things are for me. But, I have witnessed many things on this site start out as one person's idea and then develop into something amazing that works for everyone. The second people stop posting their ideas this innovation ends.
Click to expand...
I was only putting it out there and @Nutterbuster I'm not the safety police! I enjoy the posts and the innovation! I'm not sure how to solve the situation or even if it is solvable. I can say this as I've watched a ton of you tube videos diy sportsmen had a bunch of unsafe practices posted at first when he started his channel and guys called him out on it. Lets also be serious the TMA standard is not really a great standard , I think the tethred saddle broke the machine at 3000 pounds and what tree stand has done that ? You yourself said in this post they could break if your above a certain weight , which is fine to say. @Nutterbuster you have posted a number of videos of things I would say are not safe at all , and I'm sure never going to try!!!!!!! That said , is there a guy looking at improving how to climb , using a lighter method then you ? I'm going to say your cutting edge there! My concern is for younger guys trying these methods. I'm a bit older and when I started hunting we used 2x4 nailed to a tree with no safety involved what so ever! How the hell I ever built those tree forts of danger ( I do miss them at times ) I will never know or remember. These days I have a family and people relying on me so I think about the safety factor. Yes there is a lot of dangerous stuff mentioned on this site! I get that having a section saying this is dangerous isn't going to help , I'm putting it there so the admin can consider the thought of what I said. @redsquirrel because he said he was concerned with safety and methods being mentioned on here that were unsafe. Could a tree bolt snapping be unsafe? Im just looking at it on the side of what is safe , I'm also in agreement with you on many of the things you mentioned @Nutterbuster and like I said ,I'm not saying it isn't ok for you to post your methods, it just was questioned in the post. I have one example of a you tube where a guys says he uses a knot. It is the tradition bow hunting podcast with Jason Sam Covich he tells people how to build a linemens belt and he shows a stopper knot ( that will fail ) if you use his method you could get hurt! He even says guys say this isn't a good knot , is it possible he could be sued if someone got hurt ? I think it is possible ,and your making videos telling people how to do this, so there is some consideration as to you being liable! Just some food for thought , Im seriously not being a **** just looking out for others in the long run.
 
Disclaimers can be posted all over the place of any product, forum, web page, etc. Bottom line is....you can't fix stupid. I don't think anyone here would intentionally put information on this forum that would knowingly put someone at risk. When a guy takes something not approved by a manufacturer and does something unintended for its use he is taking a risk. Guys need to take responsibility for their own safety and actions. If you think something is a stupid idea it probably is.

In summary don't be an idiot and if you are you probably will do something else detrimental to your well being outside of saddle hunting before the week is over.
 
Nutterbuster said:
@PAhunter78, I'll definitely take you up on that drink if you ever make it down to Alabama. I'm not at all offended. I agree and disagree with you though.

Safety is important, yes. Mistakes, miscalculations, and system failures at height can maim or kill you. Each member should be very concerned about his/her own safety, obviously. While I absolutely reject the idea that I have an obligation to look out for you, I believe that people who look out for others are better than people who don't, and I try to "love my brother." We seem to agree here.

I have 0 problem with people calling it like they see it when it comes to a device or technique that I use. You are correct that carbon bolts are not made for climbing. I don't believe that I have ever said otherwise. They are not "safe" according to any officially recognized regulating body that is an authority on climbing.

And that brings up a can of worms.

I would say at least 90% of the ideas, techniques, and products mentioned on this forum would NOT be "safe" according to industry standards. Examples?

Tethrd's mantis is not TMA approved for use as a treestand harness. It is not approved for use as an arborist's saddle. It is not certified as a rock climbing harness. Is it safe?

Amsteel is not considered acceptable in any industry that I am aware of for life support. Arborists do not use it for such. Rock climbers do not use it for such. Rescue personnel do not use it for such. Why? Because it's "not safe."

The ropeman 1 is not considered safe for primary life support. Call the manufacturer if you'd like. Look it up on their site. It's not rated for 23kn. But tell me how many times do you see a pic on here with a ropeman not backed up, or backed up in a manner that would not circumvented failure of the component? Not safe.

Every single modified climbing stick is considered "not safe" by the manufacturer, and in the American judicial system. There's a reason most sticks utilize 17.5" step spacing. Because there's an ANSI reg that says longer steps can be dangerous. So all those 24" heliums and beast sticks are "not safe."

8mm cordage as a tether? Go to an arborist forum and tell them that's what you're using as life support in a tree. Let me know what they tell you. "Not safe."

Every single treesuit, guidos web, anderson saddle and trophyline saddle is out of date and no longer certifiable at this point. Not safe.

Modified spurs with aluminum g-hooks? Not safe.

That's just products! Heck, the whole idea of a lone individual climbing at height without a buddy is "not safe" according to every industry standard I can think of. Do we wear helmets, gloves, long shirts/pants, and eyewear every time we climb? Arborists and pole workers do, to keep them safe. And they won't even climb a tree unless they have to in most cases. Best practices means a bucket truck or ground work wherever possible. Deer can be killed from the ground, so aren't we inducing undue risk?

At saddlepalooza, I saw a WHOLE lot of "not safe." Children on spurs. Possible entrapment from multistep aiders. Kots of slips and slides that woukd make a safety inspector ask "Who the heck certified that guy to climb?"

It's been discussed ad-nauseum that what we do is similar to, but not the equivalent of, the indistries I mention. We borrow from their standards, and oftentimes break their rules willy-nilly. There is no "saddlehunters safety association" with official guidelines and definitions of safe. Probably never will be.

So we have a group of enthusiastic, but mostly ignorant ( from a technical standpoint) group of guys on the interwebs that share what they know and what they use. A forum. Not a regulatory body.

A forum works on the idea of freely sharing information. That us what I have done. Anybody and everybody is welcome to critique, comment on, or improve upon anything I post. I have always tried to provide appropriate disclaimers, and have never to my knowledge told somebody to "just do it." I've called out what I thought was questionable practices myself. I honestly have no problem with discussion and debate.

I do have an issue if anybody short of mods or the page admin is telling me what I can and can't post. I believe carbon bolts, used carefully and with appropriate safety measures, are safe for me to use. I am excited by their light weight. People ask me about them, and I answer to the best of my knowledge. I don't lie. I don't sell them. I have no skin in the game. My quality of life remains the same whether you use them or not.

My opinion on them is personal, unofficial, and amateur. I advertise it as such.

If you don't like them, that's your personal, unofficial, amateur opinion. And that's fine. I talk, you talk. Conversation stays civil. People form opinions. Life goes on.

I'm not the safety police, and I don't need others to be safety police for me. There is no saddlehunting safety police! Everything on here is caveat-emptor, use at your own risk, advice.

@PAhunter78, I know that's a mouthful. It's not directed so much at you specifically as it is the community at large. We're friends. :)

Mods and admin, if there's an issue with discussing carbon bolts, or any other "non standard" practices, let me know. That's not a gauntlet throw: I enjoy the community and want the community to enjoy me.

Sorry for the longwindedness, but this has come up more than once. That's my spiel, I'm done, it's off my chest. Goose-frabba.

I'mma go see if people have posted more pics of small boats now.
Click to expand...

Nutter if I ever make it down there I’ll give you a holler. Thanks for taking the time to clarify. What prompted me to write my post was after watching your video. At 2 minutes and 37 seconds into it you state that “these are safe”. Which is what I am concerned with but you did explain differently in your post. I am seeing too many video’s/ideas on here where saddle legs straps are being cut off, mods being made on stuff that was safe but is now not because of what others thought up. Heck I constantly hear that a saddle is impossible to fall out of. I enjoyed flinging arrows comedy video on saddle safety but one thing he failed to mention was IF you decided to take off your legs straps and disattach your waist belt but reach inside your bridge with both arms you will fall out and that is what some newbie could potentially do not knowing any better. I am new to saddle hunting and will be doing it for the first time this year. I bought a mantis because that is the only one I saw tested with a weighted fall. Also their material and lines are SAFE and used in other industries where they are relied upon for their strength. I think “in the year of safety” we should be promoting more on safety techniques and less on the race for weight and unsafe techniques. Not trying to silence anyone just looking to focus on what should be really important to new users “SAFETY”. I’ll give you a little comparison. My old man no longer shoots a compound...made the change to an Xbow. First time he went out he had the darn thing cocked and reached inside the string to make an adjustment. Sure it has a safety on the trigger but being so new it never crossed his mind. He could have potentially broke his arm or worse. I grabbed his arm when he did so and never has he done that again. I am concerned like Mike stated that a newbie comes to this site and see’s this stuff and believes it’s safe because someone said so. We promote gun safety...hunting safety. I feel we need to promote more total safety in saddle hunting that’s all.
 
Man you guys are really running with this. I’m way too heavy to be dancing around on carbon bolts. They are weak by comparison to other things we use. I’ve spent considerable time thinking about this. The way @Nutterbuster is using these is about as safe as it can get with carbon bolts with the exception he could use his tether. If you are tethrd it really doesn’t matter if one breaks. The whole attaching aiders to carbon bolts I would say is probably taking it a little too far. The question that really pops in my head is what if you were using spurs and one gaffed out? Would it be any better than a bolt breaking? It’s not that hard to stay tethrd all the way up. Especially if you are stopping to drill holes every step anyway.
 
Nutterbuster said:
Mods and admin, if there's an issue with discussing carbon bolts, or any other "non standard" practices, let me know. That's not a gauntlet throw: I enjoy the community and want the community to enjoy me.
Click to expand...

Nutter I'd like to see you continue the discussion of bolts or anything else within reason. That's how innovation happens. I have a personal opinion that as cutting edge methods gain traction the limitations of those methods should also be discussed. That's just my opinion and the mods AFAIK have not been tasked with bubble-wrapping every topic on the forum. Carry on.
 
Nutterbuster said:
@PAhunter78, I'll definitely take you up on that drink if you ever make it down to Alabama. I'm not at all offended. I agree and disagree with you though.

Safety is important, yes. Mistakes, miscalculations, and system failures at height can maim or kill you. Each member should be very concerned about his/her own safety, obviously. While I absolutely reject the idea that I have an obligation to look out for you, I believe that people who look out for others are better than people who don't, and I try to "love my brother." We seem to agree here.

I have 0 problem with people calling it like they see it when it comes to a device or technique that I use. You are correct that carbon bolts are not made for climbing. I don't believe that I have ever said otherwise. They are not "safe" according to any officially recognized regulating body that is an authority on climbing.

And that brings up a can of worms.

I would say at least 90% of the ideas, techniques, and products mentioned on this forum would NOT be "safe" according to industry standards. Examples?

Tethrd's mantis is not TMA approved for use as a treestand harness. It is not approved for use as an arborist's saddle. It is not certified as a rock climbing harness. Is it safe?

Amsteel is not considered acceptable in any industry that I am aware of for life support. Arborists do not use it for such. Rock climbers do not use it for such. Rescue personnel do not use it for such. Why? Because it's "not safe."

The ropeman 1 is not considered safe for primary life support. Call the manufacturer if you'd like. Look it up on their site. It's not rated for 23kn. But tell me how many times do you see a pic on here with a ropeman not backed up, or backed up in a manner that would not circumvented failure of the component? Not safe.

Every single modified climbing stick is considered "not safe" by the manufacturer, and in the American judicial system. There's a reason most sticks utilize 17.5" step spacing. Because there's an ANSI reg that says longer steps can be dangerous. So all those 24" heliums and beast sticks are "not safe."

8mm cordage as a tether? Go to an arborist forum and tell them that's what you're using as life support in a tree. Let me know what they tell you. "Not safe."

Every single treesuit, guidos web, anderson saddle and trophyline saddle is out of date and no longer certifiable at this point. Not safe.

Modified spurs with aluminum g-hooks? Not safe.

That's just products! Heck, the whole idea of a lone individual climbing at height without a buddy is "not safe" according to every industry standard I can think of. Do we wear helmets, gloves, long shirts/pants, and eyewear every time we climb? Arborists and pole workers do, to keep them safe. And they won't even climb a tree unless they have to in most cases. Best practices means a bucket truck or ground work wherever possible. Deer can be killed from the ground, so aren't we inducing undue risk?

At saddlepalooza, I saw a WHOLE lot of "not safe." Children on spurs. Possible entrapment from multistep aiders. Kots of slips and slides that woukd make a safety inspector ask "Who the heck certified that guy to climb?"

It's been discussed ad-nauseum that what we do is similar to, but not the equivalent of, the indistries I mention. We borrow from their standards, and oftentimes break their rules willy-nilly. There is no "saddlehunters safety association" with official guidelines and definitions of safe. Probably never will be.

So we have a group of enthusiastic, but mostly ignorant ( from a technical standpoint) group of guys on the interwebs that share what they know and what they use. A forum. Not a regulatory body.

A forum works on the idea of freely sharing information. That us what I have done. Anybody and everybody is welcome to critique, comment on, or improve upon anything I post. I have always tried to provide appropriate disclaimers, and have never to my knowledge told somebody to "just do it." I've called out what I thought was questionable practices myself. I honestly have no problem with discussion and debate.

I do have an issue if anybody short of mods or the page admin is telling me what I can and can't post. I believe carbon bolts, used carefully and with appropriate safety measures, are safe for me to use. I am excited by their light weight. People ask me about them, and I answer to the best of my knowledge. I don't lie. I don't sell them. I have no skin in the game. My quality of life remains the same whether you use them or not.

My opinion on them is personal, unofficial, and amateur. I advertise it as such.

If you don't like them, that's your personal, unofficial, amateur opinion. And that's fine. I talk, you talk. Conversation stays civil. People form opinions. Life goes on.

I'm not the safety police, and I don't need others to be safety police for me. There is no saddlehunting safety police! Everything on here is caveat-emptor, use at your own risk, advice.

@PAhunter78, I know that's a mouthful. It's not directed so much at you specifically as it is the community at large. We're friends. :)

Mods and admin, if there's an issue with discussing carbon bolts, or any other "non standard" practices, let me know. That's not a gauntlet throw: I enjoy the community and want the community to enjoy me.

Sorry for the longwindedness, but this has come up more than once. That's my spiel, I'm done, it's off my chest. Goose-frabba.

I'mma go see if people have posted more pics of small boats now.
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Well spoken!


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PAhunter78 said:
Nutter if I ever make it down there I’ll give you a holler. Thanks for taking the time to clarify. What prompted me to write my post was after watching your video. At 2 minutes and 37 seconds into it you state that “these are safe”. Which is what I am concerned with but you did explain differently in your post. I am seeing too many video’s/ideas on here where saddle legs straps are being cut off, mods being made on stuff that was safe but is now not because of what others thought up. Heck I constantly hear that a saddle is impossible to fall out of. I enjoyed flinging arrows comedy video on saddle safety but one thing he failed to mention was IF you decided to take off your legs straps and disattach your waist belt but reach inside your bridge with both arms you will fall out and that is what some newbie could potentially do not knowing any better. I am new to saddle hunting and will be doing it for the first time this year. I bought a mantis because that is the only one I saw tested with a weighted fall. Also their material and lines are SAFE and used in other industries where they are relied upon for their strength. I think “in the year of safety” we should be promoting more on safety techniques and less on the race for weight and unsafe techniques. Not trying to silence anyone just looking to focus on what should be really important to new users “SAFETY”. I’ll give you a little comparison. My old man no longer shoots a compound...made the change to an Xbow. First time he went out he had the darn thing cocked and reached inside the string to make an adjustment. Sure it has a safety on the trigger but being so new it never crossed his mind. He could have potentially broke his arm or worse. I grabbed his arm when he did so and never has he done that again. I am concerned like Mike stated that a newbie comes to this site and see’s this stuff and believes it’s safe because someone said so. We promote gun safety...hunting safety. I feel we need to promote more total safety in saddle hunting that’s all.
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I don't think I have ever watched a video or read an instructional on this site that had someone saying "this is a great idea and completely safe and without any risk at all and you should try it". And I very seriously doubt there is one. We all take risks in this sport with our own methods and our own perception of safety. That will not change in an activity with as much versatility as saddle hunting no matter what we say or don't say. I think it's better to have the resources we do have on here because without this site people will get "bright ideas" on their own and will probably be more prone to injury or worse when they could've read a thread on it. Chances are it's already been done or tested here. Safety gets preached quite a bit on this site and it should as we all could use that reminder every once in a while. But if we start censoring everything we talk about then this site will cease to exist for the most part.
 
Talking about safety, I’ve always wondered what would happen catching the step of a “safe” climbing stick just right after a slip and fall. Hopefully I never find out. The best thing that will increase your odds of returning home safely is to stay attached to the tree, period! Even then there is no guarantee of not getting hurt, possibly just mitigate damage.
 
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