Heavy Arrows & High FOC Vs. Lightweight Fast Arrows

[Kernal1984]

@Red Beard and I both scored twofers with heavy foc arrows this season... My arrow zipped thru deer #1 and entered deer#2....I didn't get a good enough look at deer#2 to determine how well the arrow penetrated or even where the arrow hit the deer... But it was stuck in there enough to were I never found my arrow...... He had much better luck... Maybe he will throw in his experience. Not sure if that is a positive or a negative for heavy arrows or not. I keep it under 30 and I know no matter what the animal is gonna jump. My bow is somewhere near 55pd draw, 28" draw length, and 29"arrow. I know it shoots slower than 200fps because the 200ezv insert tells me so. .I am accurate and confident with them so I happy....another benefit (major benefit) is the heavier u go the quieter ur bow becomes

So did you recover #2? What broadhead?

 

[Weldabeast]

Didn't find the 2nd... That arrow had 200gr german kinetics double bevel

 

[raisins]

@Red Beard and I both scored twofers with heavy foc arrows this season... My arrow zipped thru deer #1 and entered deer#2....I didn't get a good enough look at deer#2 to determine how well the arrow penetrated or even where the arrow hit the deer... But it was stuck in there enough to were I never found my arrow...... He had much better luck... Maybe he will throw in his experience. Not sure if that is a positive or a negative for heavy arrows or not. I keep it under 30 and I know no matter what the animal is gonna jump. My bow is somewhere near 55pd draw, 28" draw length, and 29"arrow. I know it shoots slower than 200fps because the 200ezv insert tells me so. .I am accurate and confident with them so I happy....another benefit (major benefit) is the heavier u go the quieter ur bow becomes

You're like a police sniper that took out the bank teller behind the guy...

 

[Bowonly]

A big component to the FOC craze is for the first time a lot of guys are looking at their tune and hunting with arrows that are flying well and hitting the animal square. For years we slapped on mechanicals as a bandaid on a poor flying arrow. Sure a big cutting diameter penetrates less but the arrow slapping sideways is a huge problem.

It's like preaching a vegan diet, just because you got healthy doesn't mean everyone has to eat kale and rice for the same results.

To go along with the theme, I've hunted with a 430ish grain arrow at around 260 to 280 for the last 18 years. Every reasonable hit is a pass through. Hit them with a big head they freak out and run in a panic. Smaller, sleek 2 blade heads get much less reaction. Poke them through both lungs and the head doesn't matter, they die right now.

 

[MattMan81]

THP dropped a video last night, and the one buck had a crossbow bolt in it's neck. Would have been nice to know the full details of the person who shot it. But most Crossbows shoot fast-ish. So if speed was the only answer... The shot would have been lethal. But with that said there are way to many variables to say why it did or didn't work. Distance, hit a limb. But it did not pass through. Not the best shot placement. But seems it should have cut something up there and at least passed through since it was off set. I think they said it had a G5 broad head on it.

 

[Red Beard]

You're like a police sniper that took out the bank teller behind the guy...

Yeah but the teller was crooked and had been pocketing nickels for years.

 

[Red Beard]

THP dropped a video last night, and the one buck had a crossbow bolt in it's neck. Would have been nice to know the full details of the person who shot it. But most Crossbows shoot fast-ish. So if speed was the only answer... The shot would have been lethal. But with that said there are way to many variables to say why it did or didn't work. Distance, hit a limb. But it did not pass through. Not the best shot placement. But seems it should have cut something up there and at least passed through since it was off set. I think they said it had a G5 broad head on it. View attachment 40803

That looks EXACTLY like what I came across yesterday afternoon. Small spike dead 10yds inside an old cut over. I could see the arrow sticking out of his side from the road so I stopped and got out. Sure enough it was a crossbow bolt 6 inches deep in his neck.

 

[MattMan81]

That looks EXACTLY like what I came across yesterday afternoon. Small spike dead 10yds inside an old cut over. I could see the arrow sticking out of his side from the road so I stopped and got out. Sure enough it was a crossbow bolt 6 inches deep in his neck.

So Florida deer 1.5 yr old? Crossbow still didn't get penatration? That was a Wi buck. Probably at least 2.5. just comparing. Don't shoot a deer in the neck with a crossbow.. Here is my 750 through the neck. Came out in front of the shoulder. I was high on the shoot. Not happy with the placement. But I pulled it out of the dirt. 3.5 old Mi deer.

 

[Red Beard]

@Red Beard and I both scored twofers with heavy foc arrows this season... Maybe he will throw in his experience.

All three of the does mentioned in this thread were taken with a 605gr TAW (300 up front) arrow at ~250fps.

3 for 2 weekend!

Praise God for such a great weekend! Harvested one doe on Friday afternoon and two on Saturday morning. Still grin from ear to ear when I think about how the second shot went down. 2-with-1 is certainly the most intense hunting experience I've had to date!

saddlehunter.com

 

[FletchDeep]

Just food for thought for those that like to shoot at the slower speeds. Could be your slow plan B arrows are in fact causing the poor shot placement.

 

[raisins]

Just food for thought for those that like to shoot at the slower speeds. Could be your slow plan B arrows are in fact causing the poor shot placement.View attachment 40805

Your chart has built into it an excellent observation that I hadn't thought of: a deer only has gravity to use as a force to drop (until they figure out how to push down using a hoof on an overhead branch). So we can calculate maximum drop given various other assumptions we can adjust to see what happens. They can turn quicker than they can drop, I'd guess, because they can use their leg muscles, but they typically load their legs a bit first by dropping.

Interesting to think of deer "trajectory" being parabolic like an arrows due to constant acceleration, so increasing the flight time has an outsized effect on deer drop.

 

[MattMan81]

Just food for thought for those that like to shoot at the slower speeds. Could be your slow plan B arrows are in fact causing the poor shot placement.View attachment 40805

True data. If the deer is going to react they have more time. But if the bow is quieter they may not. Plus other noises in the woods. So since we have no idea how they are going to react at every instance... We go for what we think will be the most effective.

 

[Kernal1984]

Didn't find the 2nd... That arrow had 200gr german kinetics double bevel

My reading comprehension sucks, just now realizing you stuck 2 with one shot. That’s awesome!

 

[kyler1945]

Just food for thought for those that like to shoot at the slower speeds. Could be your slow plan B arrows are in fact causing the poor shot placement.View attachment 40805

This chart is based on the premise deer are reacting to the sound of a bow being shot. It also focuses on how much a deer can move, without taking into consideration all the variables that dictate whether a deer will move. And finally it’s assuming the movement is up and down, not taking into consideration movement left and right - which would generate bad outcomes for light arrows and better outcomes for heavy arrows.

I may be in the minority, but I’m convinced that deer are reacting to a combination of sound of bow being shot, coupled with sound and sight of arrow traveling towards them. If this is true, the difference is going to be much smaller between fast and slow arrows.

I haven’t considered how to build numbers around it. But I’ve seen this chart a couple of times and it has me thinking about it again.

it is a useful tool for considering how much animals can move in the blink of an eye. Just the amount a deer can move between when you get pin on target and then actually release is crazy.

 

[DroptineKrazy]

That is a very interesting chart. I like to absorb all the information I can whenever I get a chance regarding deer. That being said, I don't think that deer react to the shot as much as people think they do. I know there is hundreds of videos out there showing deer ducking arrows completely but I can also say for sure that I have killed a ton of deer with an arrow that hit right where I was aiming.

 

[heretic]

Your chart has built into it an excellent observation that I hadn't thought of: a deer only has gravity to use as a force to drop (until they figure out how to push down using a hoof on an overhead branch).

Playing devil's advocate here: technically they can drop faster than 9.8m/s^2. If their head is down they can use the inertial mass of their neck/head as leverage to drop when they raise their heads while they're preloading their legs/body. It's been documented on growingdeer.tv:

However I would imagine its a finite offset since they can only move their body "so much". Also a lot of that "vertical" movement is lost to wheeling/turning as @kyler1945 has stated.

The chart is interesting but only takes into account a single dimension of a much more complex multi-dimensional problem. However as humans we like things to be dumbed down and simplified into a single scalar metric. Take from that what you will, I'll continue to shoot my slower heavier arrows because the results have been good for me thus far.

 

[raisins]

Playing devil's advocate here: technically they can drop faster than 9.8m/s^2. If their head is down they can use the inertial mass of their neck/head as leverage to drop when they raise their heads while they're preloading their legs/body. It's been documented on growingdeer.tv:

However I would imagine its a finite offset since they can only move their body "so much". Also a lot of that "vertical" movement is lost to wheeling/turning as @kyler1945 has stated.

The chart is interesting but only takes into account a single dimension of a much more complex multi-dimensional problem. However as humans we like things to be dumbed down and simplified into a single scalar metric. Take from that what you will, I'll continue to shoot my slower heavier arrows because the results have been good for me thus far.

Nice. I like it. I'd assume that the heavier the body is in relation to the head then the less the effect.

 

[heretic]

Nice. I like it. I'd assume that the heavier the body is in relation to the head then the less the effect.

From a physics standpoint yes, that sounds accurate using thought experiments. However now we're entering into the realm of biology (which I have next to zero knowledge/experience with) as far as what that relation is and how it changes across different age classes/sexes.

 

[jakhammer]

Playing devil's advocate here: technically they can drop faster than 9.8m/s^2. If their head is down they can use the inertial mass of their neck/head as leverage to drop when they raise their heads while they're preloading their legs/body. It's been documented on growingdeer.tv:

However I would imagine its a finite offset since they can only move their body "so much". Also a lot of that "vertical" movement is lost to wheeling/turning as @kyler1945 has stated.

The chart is interesting but only takes into account a single dimension of a much more complex multi-dimensional problem. However as humans we like things to be dumbed down and simplified into a single scalar metric. Take from that what you will, I'll continue to shoot my slower heavier arrows because the results have been good for me thus far.

That video is awesome! The one word of caution I would add is that alot of the deer I have killed never reacted to the shot until they were hit. I attribute this to doing everything I can to keep my bow quiet. The number 1 thing we can do to quiet our bows is to remove the quiver before we shoot.

 

[Weldabeast]

In this instance the deer was standing broadside and relaxed...22yd shot. It dropped.and turned away from me ..it was still in the process of rotating when the arrow got there...broadhead entered behind them last rib and traveled down the length of the body hitting the inside of the shoulder and redirected out the neck....1 more split second I would have totally missed. The deer ran 15ft and fell over dead