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Heavy Arrows & High FOC Vs. Lightweight Fast Arrows

J

JakeFromVirginia

Active Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2020
Messages
116
So whats better? Let’s dish it out in a friendly manner.

My experience on this site tells me there will be plenty of passion and standing the ground from EFOC, Heavy Arrow, Ranch Fairy fans.

But what about the those on the 100-125 gr point weight max club shooting less than 11gpi arrows? Can you guys get some fire under you to share some thoughts (if you exist).

What are the practitioners schools of thought?
this may have already been a thread but I can see it always a subject and maybe there’s new updated viewpoints, data etc.

Cheers!
 
425 total, 100grain expandable. Used to use NAP spitfire, switched to rage, chisels and now trypans. I have broken the offside humerus with the chisel tip. Within 30 yards I’m usually accurate enough that I don’t shoot the shoulder. With my setup going 290fps, I have gotten pass throughs on all my deer. I shot one deer in the shoulder about 10 years ago, older bow on 60lbs, and 400gr setup, lost her.... other than that one, if i shoot broadside or quarter away I get a pass through and recover my deer. Ain’t broke don’t fix it... I will say, I understand the theory of the heavy setup. And it does open up the quarter to shot, but you’ll usually exit the guts and have weak/no blood trail, so have a dog on standby. Also, I cut twice as much with my setup, that’s double the chances of catching a major artery, or cutting a little more liver with a far back shot, etc. basically, I’ll need a good reason to change because I kill deer at a high recovery rate now. Besides the shoulder shot, I’ve backstrapped a couple that I lost. So I’ve lost 4 deer I can think of in 10 years, none are the heads fault


Spencer
 
Shot a PSE at 70lbs with 420 grain TAW for 12 years with several different expandable heads. Lost 3 deer in that time but had 6 or 7 very difficult tracking jobs. I always tried to take broadside shots and never took a shot past 27 yds but practiced to 60.

Decided to buy a new bow this year and snorted the fairy dust, 70lb VXR slinging 740 grain sticks with a single bevel scary sharp head. Killed 2 deer with this setup this year. 1st was a doe at 38 yds, hit her a little far back but she didn’t even realize she was hit and walked about 30-40 yds and just fell over. #2 was a button buck at 15 yds, again didn’t realize he was hit and was down within 30 yds. Buried both arrows a foot in the dirt after passing through. Hardly any external blood on both shots but who needs a blood trail when you watch em fall. The internal damage was different than what I’ve seen in the past with a tonof blood in the body cavity and lungs on both just seemed jellied

I’m gonna drop my draw weight to 60 lbs and start another arrow build for next year now, thinking I’ll end up between 600 to 650. I felt like I needed the 70 lbs with expandables but it doesn’t seem necessary now.

I will say I broke 2 heads with my setup this year. 1st doe the pass through made a glancing shot off a locust tree and then buried in the dirt with a broken tip. The second broke off at the base and that may have been my fault trying to pull it out of a root ball. Lifetime warranty on the heads so I’ll have a replacement for next season. These were 250 abowyers and Im gonna try a 150 cutthroat this time around in case I have a failure mid season I can sub in a 125 fixed head with a 25grain washer in an emergency.

In summary I’ll never go back, the after shot reaction and being confident in an angled to shot or even a head on shot is worth it. I spent a lot of time getting everything dialed in and bareshaft tuning and nock tuning but the arrow flight is night and day from my old setup and my other friends setups. After tuning my arrows I could literally screw on a broadhead and touch shafts with a field point at 30 yds. My heads are oriented differently on all my arrows in my quiver but I can put anyone of them in a 3” circle at 40 yds.

Do yourself a favor and if you can’t stand the ranch fairy mute the video and turn on subtitles and learn something.
 
shwacker said:
425 total, 100grain expandable. Used to use NAP spitfire, switched to rage, chisels and now trypans. I have broken the offside humerus with the chisel tip. Within 30 yards I’m usually accurate enough that I don’t shoot the shoulder. With my setup going 290fps, I have gotten pass throughs on all my deer. I shot one deer in the shoulder about 10 years ago, older bow on 60lbs, and 400gr setup, lost her.... other than that one, if i shoot broadside or quarter away I get a pass through and recover my deer. Ain’t broke don’t fix it... I will say, I understand the theory of the heavy setup. And it does open up the quarter to shot, but you’ll usually exit the guts and have weak/no blood trail, so have a dog on standby. Also, I cut twice as much with my setup, that’s double the chances of catching a major artery, or cutting a little more liver with a far back shot, etc. basically, I’ll need a good reason to change because I kill deer at a high recovery rate now. Besides the shoulder shot, I’ve backstrapped a couple that I lost. So I’ve lost 4 deer I can think of in 10 years, none are the heads fault


Spencer
Click to expand...
Losing 4 deer in 10 years is a pi** poor average in my book. Unless you shoot a dozen deer every year. I haven't lost 4 deer with my bow in 40 years.
 
DroptineKrazy said:
Losing 4 deer in 10 years is a pi** poor average in my book. Unless you shoot a dozen deer every year. I haven't lost 4 deer with my bow in 40 years.
Click to expand...
What’s your setup just out of curiosity since we are discussing arrow setups in this thread.

The 4 in 10 years is probably comparable or better than TV hunters, watch any hunting show and look at the long shots and piss poor penetration they get sometimes. Then they look confused, say they don’t understand and chalk it up to bad luck and continue with a setup that’s known to be ineffective with the shots they are taking.
 
Both will kill deer. The high f.o.c. guys are planning for when the perfect shot goes south. Would you rather get hit in the head by a ping pong ball going 100 mph or a bowling ball going 20? Now think about putting a broadhead on those set ups. Probably not the best comparison, but I think you get the idea.
 
I shot super light arrows last year,my then bow shop set me up with those. I shot a fixed head. I got two does but hit both of them back a little,so i barely had to go through a rib. I guess the advantage of light arrows is the flatter trajectory. But i think deer are awfully twitchy and would rather have an arrow that will blow through bone. I dont shoot much past 30 yds on a deer and i get by with one pin set at 26 yds and end up 3" high close up and 3" low at 33 yds.
I shoot a 60# bow with 30" DL. I really like the confidence the heavy arrow gives me to aim for vital v.
 
I’ve shot the light & fast set up for 10+ years and have never lost a deer. I’m typically shooting 2-3 each year. No deer lost, but I’ve had some long nights of trailing.

After last season I decided I give the High FOC build a try. I spent all spring and summer tuning, testing, testing some more... I ended up landing on a 651 grain TAW (200 grain Broadhead) that came out to 29% FOC. It was easy to see while practicing that there was no comparison with how much harder these hit the target.

I’m shooting:
27.5 DL
64 lb DW
EZV sight

I shot a black bear early in the season and then a buck recently. Exact same thing with both animals. Complete pass thru, arrow stuck a foot in the dirt on the other side, animal just stood there looking for the noise, walked 20-30 yards and fell over dead.

The set up works great for me. 99% of the places I hunt you’d be hard pressed to get a 40 yard shot, most are 15-20. This set up really starts dropping after 40; you’d be lobbing them at 50 and 60 so it’s not without it’s limitations. That said, it fits the environment I hunt and I’ve been very satisfied.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Country said:
Both will kill deer. The high f.o.c. guys are planning for when the perfect shot goes south. Would you rather get hit in the head by a ping pong ball going 100 mph or a bowling ball going 20? Now think about putting a broadhead on those set ups. Probably not the best comparison, but I think you get the idea.
Click to expand...
It’s like the whole “a 22 will kill anything with proper shot placement “ argument.
Why yes it’s possible but why screw around when it’s proven there are more effective methods.

No I don’t wanna get shot with a 22 and definitely not an expandable broadhead, .
 
DroptineKrazy said:
Losing 4 deer in 10 years is a pi** poor average in my book. Unless you shoot a dozen deer every year. I haven't lost 4 deer with my bow in 40 years.
Click to expand...

4 deer lost, 30 killed. Sorry it’s not good enough for ya bud. One shoulder, one gut, 2 backstrapped. Maybe one day I’ll be as good as you.


Spencer
 
I've never weighed or chronographed any of my set ups over the years. Hell, back in the day there wasn't even such a thing. I've always just used the heaviest arrows and heaviest heads that flew well out of the bow I was shooting at the time. I can tell you I have shot deer in the past that reacted to the shot and were hit in places in the body that you never want to hit and was still able to recover them. I have actually shot two different deer over the years right in the poop shoot and the bh was sticking out of the brisket when I found them and neither one went over 100 yards. I also shot a big doe(#135 dressed) about 20 years ago that I hit square in the shoulder at 20 yards. I found her very dead 80 yards from where she was shot. I think the arrows I'm using right now are right around 600 grains taw but again I haven't weighed them. I'm shooting my new Mathews VXR at about #63. I did not get to try it out on a deer this year because I pinched a nerve in my neck about a month ago and that ended my season this year. Iv'e never in my life used a bh that weighed less than 125 grains and only used the 125's because I couldn't find anything heavier at the time.
 
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DroptineKrazy said:
I've never weighed or chronographed any of my set ups over the years. Hell, back in the day there wasn't even such a thing. I've always just used the heaviest arrows and heaviest heads that flew well out of the bow I was shooting at the time. I can tell you I have shot deer in the past that reacted to the shot and were hit in places in the body that you never want to hit and was still able to recover them. I have actually shot two different deer over the years right in the poop shoot and the bh was sticking out of the brisket when I found them and neither one went over 100 yards. I also shot a big doe(#135 dressed) about 20 years ago that I hit square in the shoulder at 20 yards. I found her very dead 80 yards from where she was shot. I think the arrows I'm using right now are right around 600 grains taw but again I haven't weighed them. I'm shooting my new Mathews VRX at about #63. I did not get to try it out on a deer this year because I pinched a nerve in my neck about a month ago and that ended my season this year. Iv'e never in my life used a bh that weighed less than 125 grains and only used the 125's because I couldn't find anything heavier at the time.
Click to expand...
Bummer about the pinched nerve, hope you’re lined out for next season.

All the guys I run with that were bow hunting when the first compounds came out are of the same mind. Heavy aluminum arrows and the heaviest fixed head you could get and they don’t remember an arrow not passing through until carbon arrows and expandable heads came around.
 
My old arrow set up was under 400gr. Shoot 70lbs and when I checked it was 280 fps if I remember right. Skeet load as the RF would have said. Used fixed blade heads.
1st deer I hit liver I think or back of lungs. Didn't make the other side. But got the deer. Went 60-70yrds.
Hit one in the rear hind quarter. Bounced the string off my arm. Never found him. No real penatration.
Hit a doe high on the back. Steep angle. No pass through. Ran off. Didn't recover.
Bounced another shot off my arm, and hit one back just under the spine. No pass through, but cut that artery. Recovered.
Shoot one 33 yrds through the heart. Arrow made it through, but was still in him when he took off. Hanging out.
So I was not getting penatration. Went to an Xbow for a few years. Thought speed was the answer and Xbow was cheaper than a 2000$ brand bow.
Was getting through the deer. Except one that skimmed off the spine. Hanging out. Why didn't I get full penatration?
So I started watching the old RF and learned something. 1st. Tune your bow. (I shortened my draw length and stopped hitting my arm)
I know I am not the best shot, and under pressure I get buck fever. So I knew the plan B was for me.
I ended up shooting 750ish arrows this season. No lack of penatration. My only complaint is according to the EZV disc I had I was about 200fps. Slowwww. But quiet.
But I shot one through the neck this year. Quartered in I hit him high. Full pass through into the mud. I might look into getting some speed back in the spring. But I'm all in on the High FOC train.
You don't need 750 to kill a white tail. But get over 500gr with a good FOC. IMO.

Has anyone tried a COC head and then went back to a Mechanical???
 
This has turned into some very informative information. I like the story telling of real world experience versus trying to explain the physics of it.

I’m torn as I couldn’t get heavier arrows to fly great and hated the loss of trajectory. But I understand the science and hate the idea of a poor strength with an arrow.

I am currently trying out axis fmj with 125 gr head totalling 508 gr. Only reason for 125 Head was to get the foc above 10% as I use lighted nocks. The arrows are slower than my carbon setup (240 vs 280 FPS) - so pretty big speed drop. But it flies good and I’m guessing it will hit hard. I have Magnus stinger heads but trying tooth of the arrows as they fly better and the test people have down show them to be stronger (I heard they aren’t as sharp, but I bought the sharpener and can get them Ranch Fairy sharp).

I didn’t entertain mechanicals cause I’m more of a simple fella and the idea of mechanical parts just seemed like a window for failure.

I shoot 29.5” draw, 29.25” arrows and 60# compound. Maybe one day I’ll get to 70 but that seems unnessary on my shoulders.

Ranch Fairy taught me a lot and I like the guy and enjoy his commentary. He taught me how to sharpen my Broadheads and I really like his shot placement video. Also all the Ashby stuff.

do I need to take 40 yard shots? Yes actually, just my situation. That’s where I don’t like the heavy arrow foc stuff.

thanks all!
 
Kernal1984 said:
Bummer about the pinched nerve, hope you’re lined out for next season.

All the guys I run with that were bow hunting when the first compounds came out are of the same mind. Heavy aluminum arrows and the heaviest fixed head you could get and they don’t remember an arrow not passing through until carbon arrows and expandable heads came around.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the encouraging words. I have to admit though that I started even before the compounds hit the market and your absolutely right about the issues of penetration showing up right around the time carbon arrows and expandable heads hit the market.
 
JakeFromVirginia said:
This has turned into some very informative information. I like the story telling of real world experience versus trying to explain the physics of it.

I’m torn as I couldn’t get heavier arrows to fly great and hated the loss of trajectory. But I understand the science and hate the idea of a poor strength with an arrow.

I am currently trying out axis fmj with 125 gr head totalling 508 gr. Only reason for 125 Head was to get the foc above 10% as I use lighted nocks. The arrows are slower than my carbon setup (240 vs 280 FPS) - so pretty big speed drop. But it flies good and I’m guessing it will hit hard. I have Magnus stinger heads but trying tooth of the arrows as they fly better and the test people have down show them to be stronger (I heard they aren’t as sharp, but I bought the sharpener and can get them Ranch Fairy sharp).

I didn’t entertain mechanicals cause I’m more of a simple fella and the idea of mechanical parts just seemed like a window for failure.

I shoot 29.5” draw, 29.25” arrows and 60# compound. Maybe one day I’ll get to 70 but that seems unnessary on my shoulders.

Ranch Fairy taught me a lot and I like the guy and enjoy his commentary. He taught me how to sharpen my Broadheads and I really like his shot placement video. Also all the Ashby stuff.

do I need to take 40 yard shots? Yes actually, just my situation. That’s where I don’t like the heavy arrow foc stuff.

thanks all!
Click to expand...
Did you play with the different spines? 29.5" draw you probably need a stiffer arrow.
What's the grains per inch on the FMJ? You won't get your FOC up if your weight is in the back.
 
JakeFromVirginia said:
This has turned into some very informative information. I like the story telling of real world experience versus trying to explain the physics of it.

I’m torn as I couldn’t get heavier arrows to fly great and hated the loss of trajectory. But I understand the science and hate the idea of a poor strength with an arrow.

I am currently trying out axis fmj with 125 gr head totalling 508 gr. Only reason for 125 Head was to get the foc above 10% as I use lighted nocks. The arrows are slower than my carbon setup (240 vs 280 FPS) - so pretty big speed drop. But it flies good and I’m guessing it will hit hard. I have Magnus stinger heads but trying tooth of the arrows as they fly better and the test people have down show them to be stronger (I heard they aren’t as sharp, but I bought the sharpener and can get them Ranch Fairy sharp).

I didn’t entertain mechanicals cause I’m more of a simple fella and the idea of mechanical parts just seemed like a window for failure.

I shoot 29.5” draw, 29.25” arrows and 60# compound. Maybe one day I’ll get to 70 but that seems unnessary on my shoulders.

Ranch Fairy taught me a lot and I like the guy and enjoy his commentary. He taught me how to sharpen my Broadheads and I really like his shot placement video. Also all the Ashby stuff.

do I need to take 40 yard shots? Yes actually, just my situation. That’s where I don’t like the heavy arrow foc stuff.

thanks all!
Click to expand...
Don't even worry about the trajectory part of the equation. It doesn't matter as long as you know where that arrow is gonna hit at that distance and that means putting in the time to get familiar with your set up before you go flinging arrows at animals. I very seldom take a shot beyond 30 yards at a deer and I have been using just one pin as long as I can remember. I have killed a few at 35 and 40 over the years but archery is a short range sport by definition. The key to success is to practice enough to become intimately familiar with your set up until it becomes second nature for you. It also helps a great deal to practice judging distances until you get not just good but really good at it.
 
I would say that you need the right balance between speed and weight. I have tried light and fast and stupid and heavy. I have settled on 447 total grain VAP TKOs with 125 grain Sver 2" cut broadhead with lighted knocks. I shoot a 60 pounds with an arrows speed of 281. My FOC is 14% on 31" arrows. I have lost one deer with a 100 grain broad head, but never lost a deer with the 125 grain. This is my set up and it work for shooting, whitetail, Mulley or Elk. I max out at 40 yards on a live animal. Most of my kills are between 13 and 35 yards. I have tied many of the large fixed broadheads and they either bend to easy even in practice targets or pick up too much wind for my liking.
 
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