Heavy arrow lessons learned

[cmgoff]

I saw the thread discussing whether light arrows or heavy arrows are better, and it inspired me to share my lessons learned building heavy arrows for whitetails. For background I'm shooting a bowtech SR6, 70lb draw, 30" draw length, and 31" arrow shafts.

It all started last winter when I decided I was upgrading my bow so I should also start from scratch with my arrows. I'll be honest, ranch fairy sent me down the heavy arrow rabbit hole at first.
1st build:
I started with 300 spine fmj's which if memory serves me have a gpi of 12. I chose those because they were some of the heaviest shafts I could find which looking back I believe was a mistake. To finish them off they had brass "hit" inserts and 125 GN tips.
1st results:
Initial thoughts were wow... These shoot great. But soon after I started noticing my groups were growing and we're inconsistent, also they hated broadheads. No matter what I did I could not get a fixed blade to show any consistency. I also determined that even though easton recommends a 300 spine, it was not stiff enough. I found this out by shooting bare shafts through paper, regardless of how many twists I put in my yolks or how far I moved the rest I still had a lateral tear. It's also worth noting that after shooting the fmj's for a few months all 12 of my arrows were bent. I'm unsure if the under spine was the cause of them bending or if they bent just due to wear and tear.

2nd build:
250 spine black eagle x-impacts with a gpi of 9.5, ethics archery stainless inserts with outserts, and 125 GN points. Total weight is 630 GN with an FOC over 20%.
2nd results:
Heat seaking missiles. The inconsistent issues have been resolved with these arrows which I believe is mainly because these arrows are not bending. Visually myself and others have noticed how these arrows look like perfectly thrown darts. I never realized you can see arrows ocilating as they fly until comparing to these arrows. They are not without fault though... Trajectory is atrocious. I shoot a 5 pin sight and have to use all the vertical package space to fit a 20 yard pin and a 60 yard pin. It is interesting to note that the pin gap between the 30 and 40 yard pin is nearly identical to the gap between the 50 and 60 pin which is due to the heavy arrows not loosing speed the way light arrows do.

Closing remarks:
FOC over weight. If you achieve high FOC you will also end up with significant weight. There are a lot of benefits to high FOC but in short, high FOC arrows steer broadheads better, deflect less when hitting game, and penetrate deeper.

Choose the lightest arrow with the spine you need then add weight via heavy points. Heavy broadheads are more durable, can give a larger cutting diameter and have the highest affect to FOC. Also if you decide you want to tweak something you can easily add or take away weight.
Micro diameter arrows tend to have a higher gpi than larger diameter arrows because they have a smaller section modulous.

If I could do it again I would target 550 GN, over 20% FOC and massive broadheads.
Sorry to be so wordy but I hope my learning experience will inspire other to share their thoughts and experiences.

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[kyler1945]

I saw the thread discussing whether light arrows or heavy arrows are better, and it inspired me to share my lessons learned building heavy arrows for whitetails. For background I'm shooting a bowtech SR6, 70lb draw, 30" draw length, and 31" arrow shafts.

It all started last winter when I decided I was upgrading my bow so I should also start from scratch with my arrows. I'll be honest, ranch fairy sent me down the heavy arrow rabbit hole at first.
1st build:
I started with 300 spine fmj's which if memory serves me have a gpi of 12. I chose those because they were some of the heaviest shafts I could find which looking back I believe was a mistake. To finish them off they had brass "hit" inserts and 125 GN tips.
1st results:
Initial thoughts were wow... These shoot great. But soon after I started noticing my groups were growing and we're inconsistent, also they hated broadheads. No matter what I did I could not get a fixed blade to show any consistency. I also determined that even though easton recommends a 300 spine, it was not stiff enough. I found this out by shooting bare shafts through paper, regardless of how many twists I put in my yolks or how far I moved the rest I still had a lateral tear. It's also worth noting that after shooting the fmj's for a few months all 12 of my arrows were bent. I'm unsure if the under spine was the cause of them bending or if they bent just due to wear and tear.

2nd build:
250 spine black eagle x-impacts with a gpi of 9.5, ethics archery stainless inserts with outserts, and 125 GN points. Total weight is 630 GN with an FOC over 20%.
2nd results:
Heat seaking missiles. The inconsistent issues have been resolved with these arrows which I believe is mainly because these arrows are not bending. Visually myself and others have noticed how these arrows look like perfectly thrown darts. I never realized you can see arrows ocilating as they fly until comparing to these arrows. They are not without fault though... Trajectory is atrocious. I shoot a 5 pin sight and have to use all the vertical package space to fit a 20 yard pin and a 60 yard pin. It is interesting to note that the pin gap between the 30 and 40 yard pin is nearly identical to the gap between the 50 and 60 pin which is due to the heavy arrows not loosing speed the way light arrows do.

Closing remarks:
FOC over weight. If you achieve high FOC you will also end up with significant weight. There are a lot of benefits to high FOC but in short, high FOC arrows steer broadheads better, deflect less when hitting game, and penetrate deeper.

Choose the lightest arrow with the spine you need then add weight via heavy points. Heavy broadheads are more durable, can give a larger cutting diameter and have the highest affect to FOC. Also if you decide you want to tweak something you can easily add or take away weight.
Micro diameter arrows tend to have a higher gpi than larger diameter arrows because they have a smaller section modulous.

If I could do it again I would target 550 GN, over 20% FOC and massive broadheads.
Sorry to be so wordy but I hope my learning experience will inspire other to share their thoughts and experiences.

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk

The everyman's guide to killing a deer with a compound bow...

Will an expandable broadhead on a light arrow kill a deer? Yes. Can you kill a deer at 50 yards with a bow? Yes. Is a 7 pin sight useful? Sure. Is the Ranch Fairy annoying? Yes. Is Ashby god? Sometimes it seems that way. Can everyone just shut up? I've learned the answer is no. Ok...

saddlehunter.com

Sorry, wish we had found each other before you started. Could’ve saved you a few bucks and time!

 

[Allegheny Tom]

I saw the thread discussing whether light arrows or heavy arrows are better, and it inspired me to share my lessons learned building heavy arrows for whitetails. For background I'm shooting a bowtech SR6, 70lb draw, 30" draw length, and 31" arrow shafts.

It all started last winter when I decided I was upgrading my bow so I should also start from scratch with my arrows. I'll be honest, ranch fairy sent me down the heavy arrow rabbit hole at first.
1st build:
I started with 300 spine fmj's which if memory serves me have a gpi of 12. I chose those because they were some of the heaviest shafts I could find which looking back I believe was a mistake. To finish them off they had brass "hit" inserts and 125 GN tips.
1st results:
Initial thoughts were wow... These shoot great. But soon after I started noticing my groups were growing and we're inconsistent, also they hated broadheads. No matter what I did I could not get a fixed blade to show any consistency. I also determined that even though easton recommends a 300 spine, it was not stiff enough. I found this out by shooting bare shafts through paper, regardless of how many twists I put in my yolks or how far I moved the rest I still had a lateral tear. It's also worth noting that after shooting the fmj's for a few months all 12 of my arrows were bent. I'm unsure if the under spine was the cause of them bending or if they bent just due to wear and tear.

2nd build:
250 spine black eagle x-impacts with a gpi of 9.5, ethics archery stainless inserts with outserts, and 125 GN points. Total weight is 630 GN with an FOC over 20%.
2nd results:
Heat seaking missiles. The inconsistent issues have been resolved with these arrows which I believe is mainly because these arrows are not bending. Visually myself and others have noticed how these arrows look like perfectly thrown darts. I never realized you can see arrows ocilating as they fly until comparing to these arrows. They are not without fault though... Trajectory is atrocious. I shoot a 5 pin sight and have to use all the vertical package space to fit a 20 yard pin and a 60 yard pin. It is interesting to note that the pin gap between the 30 and 40 yard pin is nearly identical to the gap between the 50 and 60 pin which is due to the heavy arrows not loosing speed the way light arrows do.

Closing remarks:
FOC over weight. If you achieve high FOC you will also end up with significant weight. There are a lot of benefits to high FOC but in short, high FOC arrows steer broadheads better, deflect less when hitting game, and penetrate deeper.

Choose the lightest arrow with the spine you need then add weight via heavy points. Heavy broadheads are more durable, can give a larger cutting diameter and have the highest affect to FOC. Also if you decide you want to tweak something you can easily add or take away weight.
Micro diameter arrows tend to have a higher gpi than larger diameter arrows because they have a smaller section modulous.

If I could do it again I would target 550 GN, over 20% FOC and massive broadheads.
Sorry to be so wordy but I hope my learning experience will inspire other to share their thoughts and experiences.

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk

Grizzlystik Momentum shafts are tapered and have a "built-in" foc of 5%. I cant remember what a full length weighs per inch but its not strictly that they weigh "X" grains per inch, due to the taper. The tip weighs more per inch than the nock end does.

 

[cmgoff]

Grizzlystik Momentum shafts are tapered and have a "built-in" foc of 5%. I cant remember what a full length weighs per inch but its not strictly that they weigh "X" grains per inch, due to the taper. The tip weighs more per inch than the nock end does.

I did see that a while back. I wonder if the stiffness is consistent throughout the length of the shaft. Not sure it would matter just curious.

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[Allegheny Tom]

I did see that a while back. I wonder if the stiffness is consistent throughout the length of the shaft. Not sure it would matter just curious.

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I don't know how it could be consistent but its just my guess. I cut mine to length by cutting off the lighter nock end. Keeps the heavier end and improves the foc better that cutting off the tip end.
Grizzlystik is coming out with a gen 2 Momentum and they had a great deal on the closeouts. Got 3 free Overkill broadheads with a 6 shaft order. Not sure if the sale is still on or what they have left.

 

[Arkie]

Grizzlystik Momentum shafts are tapered and have a "built-in" foc of 5%. I cant remember what a full length weighs per inch but its not strictly that they weigh "X" grains per inch, due to the taper. The tip weighs more per inch than the nock end does.

I had a similar experience as the OP.
Started out testing with FMJs. What a mistake.

Ended up with the GrizzlyStik Momentum, cut from the nock end, 650 TAW, 29% FOC

Unbelievable how well they fly and how hard they hit. Shot a bear and a deer this year with them. I’m certainly on board with the high FOC movement. I may go down to 550-600 in the off-season and target around a 20% FOC.

I also ended up switching to the EZV sight since I don’t ever shoot past 40 yards, and had a 5 pin. I would recommend this sight for hunting any day.


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[michigandrake]

I agree with your assessment as it mirrors my experience. Moved from 14% to 22% this year with the same weight arrow by switching to a lighter shaft and moving the saved weight to the front. The process did take some time and experimentation but was worth it. Not that my old setup was bad but in comparison the new setup is superior. Add large broadheads and the higher FOC really shines. The only drawback I can see is the lighter walled shafts are not as durable as their thick walled cousins.

 

[cmgoff]

I agree with your assessment as it mirrors my experience. Moved from 14% to 22% this year with the same weight arrow by switching to a lighter shaft and moving the saved weight to the front. The process did take some time and experimentation but was worth it. Not that my old setup was bad but in comparison the new setup is superior. Add large broadheads and the higher FOC really shines. The only drawback I can see is the lighter walled shafts are not as durable as their thick walled cousins.

That is a good point that I didn't think of... I would guess it is balanced out some by getting the CG closer to the point of impact. I can't remember the buckling equation from my old engineering classes but I do remember that if the length of the member is shorter then the critical buckling force is increases.

It's all food for thought.

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[neonomad]

Same experience with FMJs... (1) unless you want a super heavy arrow high FOC is hard to get, and (2) start with a dozen and watch em all bend over time.

At first I was wondering if you were going to mention wanting an improvement in trajectory and then there it was! The mention of mid 500s as a possible best balance of both.

I’m at 530 but with Easton Axis + Montecs. I’ve seen it mentioned that heavy two blades seem to cause less panic and running from shot deer, shorter blood trails; that rumor is interesting enough for me to search out a good two blade in 2021.

Thanks for the write up!

 

[Mschmeiske]

I feel at 70# I’d rather a flat shooting arrow. You should blow right through them at that weight if you do your part. At 50# and a 375 ish grain arrow I haven’t had an issue yet.

 

[Allegheny Tom]

I feel at 70# I’d rather a flat shooting arrow. You should blow right through them at that weight if you do your part. At 50# and a 375 ish grain arrow I haven’t had an issue yet.

Blow right thru what? Crap happens an heavy shoulder bone eventually gets hit. Not talking about the scapula, I'm talking about the heavier forward bones of the shoulder. But that's only talking about the entrance side. We really want an exit hole. If you hit heavy bone on the entrance and hit heavier bone on the far side, will you achieve an exit with a light set up? Or even worse with expandables on a light arrow and low foc?
I want to be able to shoot thru an I beam. Draw weight is not the determining factor.

 

[Mschmeiske]

Bl

Blow right thru what? Crap happens an heavy shoulder bone eventually gets hit. Not talking about the scapula, I'm talking about the heavier forward bones of the shoulder. But that's only talking about the entrance side. We really want an exit hole. If you hit heavy bone on the entrance and hit heavier bone on the far side, will you achieve an exit with a light set up? Or even worse with expandables on a light arrow and low foc?
I want to be able to shoot thru an I beam. Draw weight is not the determining factor.

I guess I haven’t had that happen yet. I’m a double lung guy and have been fortunate to sneak through unscathed so far. I would also never shoot an expandable, even if I shot 80# I’m not sure why anyone would want to shoot them. Too each his or her own. Happy Hunting.

 

[Allegheny Tom]

I guess I haven’t had that happen yet. I’m a double lung guy and have been fortunate to sneak through unscathed so far. I would also never shoot an expandable, even if I shot 80# I’m not sure why anyone would want to shoot them. Too each his or her own. Happy Hunting.

We all try for double lungs or at least we should. But on a quartering away shot, we are basically aiming for the far shoulder as our exit. If things go as we plan, in a sense we are actually shooting for heavy bone. And that is where we need the all important exit wound.
An exit is really the number 1 goal for the reasons Ashby is such a proponent of the heavy bone breaking threshold of 650 grains. He contends that animals that are not recovered is often due to a lack of an exit hole.

You and I are definitely on the same page about expandable heads.
Its good that your light arrows has been working for you. I wish you continued luck with it.


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[Arkie]

Same experience with FMJs... (1) unless you want a super heavy arrow high FOC is hard to get, and (2) start with a dozen and watch em all bend over time.

At first I was wondering if you were going to mention wanting an improvement in trajectory and then there it was! The mention of mid 500s as a possible best balance of both.

I’m at 530 but with Easton Axis + Montecs. I’ve seen it mentioned that heavy two blades seem to cause less panic and running from shot deer, shorter blood trails; that rumor is interesting enough for me to search out a good two blade in 2021.

Thanks for the write up!

I’m shooting the Iron Will S-200, and the reaction to the hit really surprised me.

I would definitely give some other broadheads a try and see what you think, but most everyone I know that shoots higher FOC and a point similar to what I mentioned above have had essentially the same results. Basically no reaction, walks 20-30 yards and falls over.


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[cmgoff]

I'm shooting 125 cutthroats but unfortunately this year has been pretty rough for me so cannot comment on the reaction of any shot deer. I did shoot a ground hog with one that didn't seem to know what hit him, he actually looked at the arrow sitting in the grass behind him wondering what it was.
Next time I'll go less insert and more broadhead.

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[woodsdog2]

One of the most important lessons I learned this year was the importance of taking the time to nock tune each carbon bare shaft to get perfect or close to perfect bullet holes through paper at 21 feet. I was pulling my hair out cutting my arrows down increment by increment trying to stop the stiff reaction through paper. Once I started spinning my nocks and shooting until each shot a nice bullet hole, the rest of the build was simple. I discovered that my bow likes 200 and 250 grains up front the best. I didn't go beyond 250 but I may this year just to see how heavy I can go. I have a pretty short DL of 27" so I was trying to strike somewhat of a balance so I went to a moderately heavy, efoc setup this year using GT Hunter XTs in .340spine, 100gn ethics inserts with 150gn. VPA three blade coc broadheads with three fletch zingers in left helical at 3 degrees for a TAW of 532grains, 21.7%EFOC and although my bow speed went from 275 fps to 235fps, I can honestly say if I was using my previous 373grn TAW set up with a mechanical, I wouldn't have harvested the buck I shot this year. At release my buck spun toward me and the arrow caught his opposite side shoulder and penetrated up through the front and out his swollen neck. I know a mechanical would have easily deflected with the reaction of that buck. The best part is I just cleaned the arrow, sharpened the broadhead up again and slid a new zinger back on and that arrow was in my quiver for the next animal within 20 minutes after I got home. No more throw away arrows and broadheads either which is often not discussed and probably should be. The VPA 150's were like $42 for a three pack but in my opinion, are quite a bargain when you figure a one time use mechanical for a three pack is the same price. And the other thing, each one of these broadheads spins perfectly concentric to the shaft the best I've experienced of many broadheads. Easy to sharpen too with a 12" flat mill bastard file laying flat on the table. My bow has a DW of 61.2lbs.

 

[Allegheny Tom]

One of the most important lessons I learned this year was the importance of taking the time to nock tune each carbon bare shaft to get perfect or close to perfect bullet holes through paper at 21 feet. I was pulling my hair out cutting my arrows down increment by increment trying to stop the stiff reaction through paper. Once I started spinning my nocks and shooting until each shot a nice bullet hole, the rest of the build was simple. I discovered that my bow likes 200 and 250 grains up front the best. I didn't go beyond 250 but I may this year just to see how heavy I can go. I have a pretty short DL of 27" so I was trying to strike somewhat of a balance so I went to a moderately heavy, efoc setup this year using GT Hunter XTs in .340spine, 100gn ethics inserts with 150gn. VPA three blade coc broadheads with three fletch zingers in left helical at 3 degrees for a TAW of 532grains, 21.7%EFOC and although my bow speed went from 275 fps to 235fps, I can honestly say if I was using my previous 373grn TAW set up with a mechanical, I wouldn't have harvested the buck I shot this year. At release my buck spun toward me and the arrow caught his opposite side shoulder and penetrated up through the front and out his swollen neck. I know a mechanical would have easily deflected with the reaction of that buck. The best part is I just cleaned the arrow, sharpened the broadhead up again and slid a new zinger back on and that arrow was in my quiver for the next animal within 20 minutes after I got home. No more throw away arrows and broadheads either which is often not discussed and probably should be. The VPA 150's were like $42 for a three pack but in my opinion, are quite a bargain when you figure a one time use mechanical for a three pack is the same price. And the other thing, each one of these broadheads spins perfectly concentric to the shaft the best I've experienced of many broadheads. Easy to sharpen too with a 12" flat mill bastard file laying flat on the table. My bow has a DW of 61.2lbs.

Just how sharp can you get them with that method?
Years ago I bought Snuffers and tried to sharpen them with that method. The angle was not acute enough to get them truly sharp. Is there something different about the VPA 150s that allows them to be sharpened that way?

 

[BTaylor]

Never had much trouble getting any 3 blade decently sharp with just a file but never had the magic to get them "truly" sharp with just a file. Always had to finish them on med and fine stones and strop for scary.

Them old snuffers were bad medicine. Wish I still had some.

 

[woodsdog2]

Just how sharp can you get them with that method?
Years ago I bought Snuffers and tried to sharpen them with that method. The angle was not acute enough to get them truly sharp. Is there something different about the VPA 150s that allows them to be sharpened that way?

Absolutely, they are engineered to be sharpened that way, I just put them flat on the file and do three strokes on each side forward (as the broadhead would enter the target) with quite a bit of pressure then do it backwards (pulling the broadhead backwards i.e. pulling the broadhead back out of the target) on each side three times and with a bit less pressure) then flip it forward again but then do one stroke per side so 1, flip 2, flip 3, flip and keep doing that about 5 or six times so each side is pushed along the file 5-6 times but alternating.... and with decreasing pressure until just the weight of the head essentially is all the pressure you are putting on it for the final stroke for each of the three sides. I then using a very fine flat diamond hone and lightly do each of the three sides twice with light to very light pressure. That's it. Frankly, you can skip the final honing with the 800 or very fine grit diamond hone it pops small diameter rubber bands under very light tension very easily. I like these heads a lot!!! They have a great sharpening video which is what I followed, I will post it if I can find it. It did post it somewhere on this sight a month ago but I can't remember the thread.

 

[woodsdog2]

Never had much trouble getting any 3 blade decently sharp with just a file but never had the magic to get them "truly" sharp with just a file. Always had to finish them on med and fine stones and strop for scary.

Them old snuffers were bad medicine. Wish I still had some.

I've never shot or used the Woodman broadheads but I will stick my neck out and say the VPA's are a much better broadhead. I can't recommend them enough. Plus I bought two three packs and weighed them and they were all within a grain or half grain of each other on my scale. They were about 4.5 grains more than 150 though. I assumed they do this to account for some sharpening of them down but could just be my scale.