It's all good my friend. Like i said before, I know people will throw rocks at me for suggesting something different.
Get outta here. Why would a company that makes bullets want you to shoot more of them?
Good call. One to zero before the hunt, another 3 weeks later before putting it back in storage(or if scope gets bumped)I can guarantee with 100% certainty theres an exceedingly simple answer to barrel heat….
Don’t. Shoot. Fast.
There's an easy way to figure out cold bore accuracy. Just use push pins instead of staples so the one shot target can be pulled down and reuse it for the next cold bore shot. Wait a week, a month, or a year in between shots if you want, using the same target to record your cold bore shots will show what the cold bore accuracy of the rifle is.
Just curious, but what is the difference in actual POI that you personally saw?
That's fair. I should have said ruger american.
Sometimes people miss and ya need another shot...good to have both. I actually used a muzzy in the same way you're mentioning until I bought that ruger american.
Unless you are using hand loaded ammo where you have the ability to take all the inconsistencies possible out of the ammo you are also fighting the standard deviations imparted by the ammo manufacturer. You have found what gives you confidence and that is what matters but if you want true point of impact on a hunting rifle all shots need to be cold bore. No one is going to burn up a barrel shooting 15 round groups and adjust to center poi when a cold bore shot is off from the “centered” deviations. Thats why hand loaders tune ammo to the gun. They keep the variables centered around point of impact.You believe you're getting the same results. So did I. Until I challenged my own beliefs and actually went out and tested it and it changed my mind. It's all good. I know y'all are just going to shout at me about being wrong but none of you are actually going to go out to the range and put rounds down to test it yourselves
I have that rifle chambered in .308
This conversation just got interesting for me.... I am an engineer with a PhD so I really am a math nerd. There is a lot of good information here. Here is the two things I would clarify. While I do not know what the statistics of shot patterns are, I certainly guarantee they are not Normal (Gaussian) statistics. If you have an extreme outlier it is caused by technique or bullet. When shooting, you do not get a true mean and variance (dispersion) but a sample mean and variance that will approximate the true statistics. You are right that fewer shots will potentially have large bias; thinks of flipping a coin. 10 flips you might get 8H and 2T but in 1000 flips it will be very close to 500H/500T. This is a real life example of the Central Limit Theorem. All that said, for most of use, I bet our shot variation is more based on the shooter than on the rifle unless you are using a sled.
You're an engineer. Engineers test things. If you're certain what I'm saying isn't true go test it so we can discuss what you found
.Oh I believe what you are saying is "true", certainly in principle. I can sort of empirically prove that it is not Normal (Gaussian) statistics since that would allow for a probability (albeit small) of shots landing well outside of the target area (infinitely outside in fact). I would postulate that it is maybe a raised cosine or triangular distribution with a small variance.You're an engineer. Engineers test things. If you're certain what I'm saying isn't true go test it so we can discuss what you found
I hope I have not caused offense? Hard to tell. If so, I am actually supporting what you say about small sample sizes..... I just nerded it up a little. If you can remove human error then a large sample size will give you better statistics and you could fit a real distribution. Human error will usually bias the shot in one direction since we tend to make the same errors over and over. I bet human error is biased low from jerking the trigger.Typical propeller-head, nose in a book but afraid to get your hands dirty
Seriously though, I may not have your technical knowledge of statistics but I have a BS in Mechanical Engineering and a desire to learn how things work. When the Hornady engineers and Bryan Litz started posting their research from shooting small vs large sample sizes everybody on every shooting forum I used to follow did exactly what everyone on here is doing. Come up with a million and one reasons why it's wrong and another million and one reasons why they won't go to a range and shoot to try it. Instead of following the herd I actually got a rifle and went to the range and GASP! actually started shooting to test some of their findings to see if I got similar results. I did and it was a huge eye opener.
I don't know if you're a handloader or competitive shooter but these concepts can have profound effects on both of these pursuits beyond statistical technicalities. That's the reason behind my continual challenges to people to actually go out and test a small vs large sample, people will likely never look at a 3 shot group (small sample) the same again. It's become my own personal joke at this point because I haven't come across a single person on a shooting forum that will actually go try it but I sure have gotten my fair share of people calling me an idiot in a thousand different ways
Absolutely no offense taken my friend, it's all good
Never really questioned the validity of the point, just questioning the application for the average hunter lol. For myself, I have shown zero variances daily, but not usually the variance that requires me to make a scope adjustment. If a hunter is happy with a 2.5" group and shoots a 3-shot 1" group at center, do the variances matter? If a 3 to 5-shot group can be consistently measured at 0.25" and a 10-shot group is consistently measured at 0.5" is the POI worth chasing daily by the variance? I used to shoot benchrest (competitively), tactical matches (competitively), and long range (800-1200 yds. as a precision hobby/varmint hunting); load and shooter variance play a big difference at long range, so ironing those out beforehand is part of the process... I also have detailed shot logs (per rifle) for daily zeros, loads, counts, cleanings, accuracy fall-offs, etc.
