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Tree Stand Harness

John RB said:
My position is that it doesn't matter whether we have climbed a tree with sticks or steps or a ladder or a rope. It doesn't matter what our feet are on. It doesn't matter where we are facing. We simply always need to be tied in, low slack and high reliability path to ground. A saddle provides that. To my knowledge, a conventional FAH only addresses the fall. I have spoken to rope rescue personnel who have recovered the suspension victims. That's why these articles are written: always be ready to phone a friend.

bowhuntersunited.com

Help! I Fell From my Treestand. Now What?

Don’t panic! Here’s what to do if you fall from your treestand.
bowhuntersunited.com bowhuntersunited.com

It is my position that if we have managed our slack profile down to inches, our bodies and a well made saddle will absorb a fall of inches (less than a foot) and FF
Also, I would like to understand what is your definition of what constitutes a "dynamic event"? Techically ANY fall is a dynamic event. But I don't know anybody who would retire a saddle after a one inch fall? Would you? Two inches? Sitting down abruptly is a dynamic event and generates similar force. What is YOUR definition of a permissible fall distance in a saddle and in a FAH? I can't find that anywhere. And I have been searching.

My position is that we should strive for zero slack and in a worst case, if our footing collapsed, ensure that we can never fall more than a foot in a saddle, with FF
Also, the details about how I sit in a tree stand in a saddle are all covered in the above video, minute 10: when i sit with my back to the tree, i am on no more than a couple inches. Just enough to allow my head to turn.




JrbTreeClimbing.com, affiliated with RockNArbor.com
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I agree that your method is the safest way to go.
But when your are sitting in the tree stand, I am not so convinced that the saddle with the tether over the shoulder is the best option. I did that last season and felt it restricted my movement too much. A saddle harness with a rear connection can be tight when sitting and the slack can be removed when standing.
The only concern I have is if the tree stand stap broke and the stand fell. Can I turn around to face the tree for self rescue hanging in the harness?
 
John RB said:
My position is that it doesn't matter whether we have climbed a tree with sticks or steps or a ladder or a rope. It doesn't matter what our feet are on. It doesn't matter where we are facing. We simply always need to be tied in, low slack and high reliability path to ground. A saddle provides that. To my knowledge, a conventional FAH only addresses the fall. I have spoken to rope rescue personnel who have recovered the suspension victims. That's why these articles are written: always be ready to phone a friend.

bowhuntersunited.com

Help! I Fell From my Treestand. Now What?

Don’t panic! Here’s what to do if you fall from your treestand.
bowhuntersunited.com bowhuntersunited.com

It is my position that if we have managed our slack profile down to inches, our bodies and a well made saddle will absorb a fall of inches (less than a foot) and FF
Also, I would like to understand what is your definition of what constitutes a "dynamic event"? Techically ANY fall is a dynamic event. But I don't know anybody who would retire a saddle after a one inch fall? Would you? Two inches? Sitting down abruptly is a dynamic event and generates similar force. What is YOUR definition of a permissible fall distance in a saddle and in a FAH? I can't find that anywhere. And I have been searching.

My position is that we should strive for zero slack and in a worst case, if our footing collapsed, ensure that we can never fall more than a foot in a saddle, with FF
Also, the details about how I sit in a tree stand in a saddle are all covered in the above video, minute 10: when i sit with my back to the tree, i am on no more than a couple inches. Just enough to allow my head to turn.




JrbTreeClimbing.com, affiliated with RockNArbor.com
Click to expand...
John the suspension lowering device I tagged is one of many. Some can handle multiple falls some only one. Bottom line is do you plan to fall multiple times in one day? And I get it your slack is limited to a FF of 1 or less but two things….
A) if that stand cuts out while you are facing away from the tree, it’s not gonna happen like your little hold the ladder and slide sideways in the video, it’s either going to be a hard sudden swing backwards where the back of your head could in fact slam into the tree and then your body weight will hold that tether tightly across your chest or potentially your throat. In that instant recovery is not as simple as what you are trying to convince people. This has been a huge hang up with TMA not adopting saddle standards.. OR the fall is going to violently whip you around with you partially inverted with all that force applying to your waist and sternum and back. A foot fall might not kill you, but it could easily tear muscles, rupture your appendix or spleen, or herniate discs/fracture vertebrae in your back, all of which would impede that “easy recovery”. You didn’t originate this concept or idea. I promise you there have been study after study, and test after test of why it’s safer to use a FAS/FBH in a tree stand or on a ladder or a scissor lift ect…. I’ll now end this conversation with 2 pics from your video… IMG_9532.png


IMG_9535.jpeg
 
Fl Canopy Stalker said:
John the suspension lowering device I tagged is one of many. Some can handle multiple falls some only one. Bottom line is do you plan to fall multiple times in one day? And I get it your slack is limited to a FF of 1 or less but two things….
A) if that stand cuts out while you are facing away from the tree, it’s not gonna happen like your little hold the ladder and slide sideways in the video, it’s either going to be a hard sudden swing backwards where the back of your head could in fact slam into the tree and then your body weight will hold that tether tightly across your chest or potentially your throat. In that instant recovery is not as simple as what you are trying to convince people. This has been a huge hang up with TMA not adopting saddle standards.. OR the fall is going to violently whip you around with you partially inverted with all that force applying to your waist and sternum and back. A foot fall might not kill you, but it could easily tear muscles, rupture your appendix or spleen, or herniate discs/fracture vertebrae in your back, all of which would impede that “easy recovery”. You didn’t originate this concept or idea. I promise you there have been study after study, and test after test of why it’s safer to use a FAS/FBH in a tree stand or on a ladder or a scissor lift ect…. I’ll now end this conversation with 2 pics from your video… View attachment 100424


View attachment 100425
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Since I am an admitted saddle user in a tree stand on occasion, I am curious about what rope routing you feel is better. If I am sitting in a stand I never go over the shoulder like pictured. I route under my arm and adjust slack out. I do that for 2 reasons. If a deer shows and I need to stand and pivot it is easier for me to do so with the line under my arm starting out. Second, it just seemed to be a safer position if the stand were to drop out, I wouldnt have the issue of the line getting on my neck and it seemed like it provide some minor measure of control in a whip around situation where an arm could be extended for support. That could very well be foolish thinking though, it's just what made sense to me.
 
BTaylor said:
Since I am an admitted saddle user in a tree stand on occasion, I am curious about what rope routing you feel is better. If I am sitting in a stand I never go over the shoulder like pictured. I route under my arm and adjust slack out. I do that for 2 reasons. If a deer shows and I need to stand and pivot it is easier for me to do so with the line under my arm starting out. Second, it just seemed to be a safer position if the stand were to drop out, I wouldnt have the issue of the line getting on my neck and it seemed like it provide some minor measure of control in a whip around situation where an arm could be extended for support. That could very well be foolish thinking though, it's just what made sense to me.
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I think post #8 answers your question.
My take away is their is no safe way to use any front connected harness/saddle when facing away from the tree. I will use a full body safety harness and pack a Dryad mini if I am not sure how I will set up. If I know I will be saddle hunting the Transformer will be used.
 
Fl Canopy Stalker said:
John the suspension lowering device I tagged is one of many. Some can handle multiple falls some only one. Bottom line is do you plan to fall multiple times in one day? And I get it your slack is limited to a FF of 1 or less but two things….
A) if that stand cuts out while you are facing away from the tree, it’s not gonna happen like your little hold the ladder and slide sideways in the video, it’s either going to be a hard sudden swing backwards where the back of your head could in fact slam into the tree and then your body weight will hold that tether tightly across your chest or potentially your throat. In that instant recovery is not as simple as what you are trying to convince people. This has been a huge hang up with TMA not adopting saddle standards.. OR the fall is going to violently whip you around with you partially inverted with all that force applying to your waist and sternum and back. A foot fall might not kill you, but it could easily tear muscles, rupture your appendix or spleen, or herniate discs/fracture vertebrae in your back, all of which would impede that “easy recovery”. You didn’t originate this concept or idea. I promise you there have been study after study, and test after test of why it’s safer to use a FAS/FBH in a tree stand or on a ladder or a scissor lift ect…. I’ll now end this conversation with 2 pics from your video… View attachment 100424


View attachment 100425
Click to expand...
Fair points. FBHs are required in bucket trucks too. Standard arb saddles are not
 
GeoFish said:
I think post #8 answers your question.
My take away is their is no safe way to use any front connected harness/saddle when facing away from the tree. I will use a full body safety harness and pack a Dryad mini if I am not sure how I will set up. If I know I will be saddle hunting the Transformer will be used.
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I will go back and look at that post but I can tell you without question or reservation I am not wearing a rear attachment harness while hunting. Absolutely not advocating that route for anyone else. We all have to live with a certain level of risk that is acceptable to us individually. To me that also means if you accept a certain level or risk that you are willing to accept the consequences if things go side ways. Dont be suing someone cause you spilled hot coffee on your junk.
 
John RB said:
1. I believe it's the responsibility of every climber and every equipment manufacturer to strive to eliminate both: 1) the possibility of a fall and 2) of the climber getting stuck in a tree after a mishap like a slip or failure of a component such as a stand, stick or step or aider. Assume that will happen to you multiple times in your career and promise yourself it won't be a problem.

2. I appreciate the perspective of a rope access techician, but our job is to NEVER need one. Sure, a FAH with chest straps and back connector is best for a fall. But I don't want to fall. Falls hurt. So just make it impossible to fall.

3. Ensuring that and our own general safety comes down to just 3 things 1) always be properly tied in 2) always have zero or just a few inches of slack, never more than a foot. 3) have a rappel plan that you can execute after any mishap and with nothing under your feet.

4. Getting knocked out? Well, a falling dead branch from the canopy could knock us out, but if that's a concern, we should have a helmet. But getting knocked out from a fall after a stand collapse isn't possible if we followed the rules above. I have tested that I can absorb and recover from a 9inch fall which is about the max slack I have ever allowed.

5. Rappel is easy. It can be practiced at ground height. I learned to rappel in my basement which has a 7ft ceiling.

6. I met up with my closest hunting buddy this year to ask him about how he uses his FAH. He always uses it but he couldn't even find his suspension relief strap. He never used it or carried it. He didn't understand the risk. He had no idea how he would get down with nothing underfoot. That's all I needed to know. Our setup needs to be foolproof. I bought him a saddle the next day. I showed him how to get down.

7. I looked at the link that CanopyStalker pasted above. Did ya see the part that says "one time use only"? How are we supposed to test and be confident that our system works if we have to throw it away after the 1st test? And what good is a system that's only protecting us when we are at height? We need to be protected the whole time, including ascent and descent. There are plenty of people who are lined up to sell us something if they can convince us we can use it. But it's our job to think it through... think of everything which could possibly happen and decide if we're ready for it... or how to eliminate the possibility of it happening.

8. The mere need for Suspension relief in a system shows it has failure modes I am not interested in. That sounds like a situation when i would rappel to safety. The attachment point way up over the back of our head... not interested. Now I need to operate a knife near my head to cut myself out in order to rappel? No thanks. I like my attachment point where i can easily access and control it.

9. Anyone who thinks a Linemans Belt or a FAH is a good plan chickens out when they are challenged to a round of the WHISTLE TEST game. It's been part of climb safety training forever: I'll go first... I climb the tree and you can blow the whistle 10 times. When you do, i let go with my hands and try to fall sideways, simulating the unexpected... but of course, I don't go anywhere and can always get to ground and safety... I have no slack and a rappel plan... nothing to cut myself on. Then it's my turn with the whistle... you get the idea. Everyone is an expert until it's time to get your legs ripped open by a sharp stick or get stuck on a FAH.

10. I didn't write this with my thumbs because I wanted to debate. I wrote it because an increasing number of my saddle brothers and sisters, actually GET IT. Your comments are much more educated than they were 2 yrs ago for certain. Some are reading and nodding... some are thinking. One at a time. Remember: Dont ask the guys who haven't had a problem with it. Ask the ones who have. Ask a rope rescue tech... not the salesperson who will say anything to get a sale. And when ya get safe, then go knock some sense into YOUR best friend. He's not gonna listen to me. -jrb



JrbTreeClimbing.com, affiliated with RockNArbor.com
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I was tracking til you started trash talking sticks. Then “you quit preaching and gone to meddling.”
 
BTaylor said:
Since I am an admitted saddle user in a tree stand on occasion, I am curious about what rope routing you feel is better. If I am sitting in a stand I never go over the shoulder like pictured. I route under my arm and adjust slack out. I do that for 2 reasons. If a deer shows and I need to stand and pivot it is easier for me to do so with the line under my arm starting out. Second, it just seemed to be a safer position if the stand were to drop out, I wouldnt have the issue of the line getting on my neck and it seemed like it provide some minor measure of control in a whip around situation where an arm could be extended for support. That could very well be foolish thinking though, it's just what made sense to me.
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Neither is particularly safe however, if I was personally going to do one or the other, I’d have the rope underneath my underarm, and not over the shoulder. Truthfully though, neither is particularly safe even with good slack management.
As @TreeRecon said in bucket trucks, or scissor lifts (both of which you could tether off and keep it tension easily, they still don’t allow you to use a work positioning harness, they require a FBH//fas with a 6’ shock absorbing lanyard. And you want to talk about a tough tough recovery…. Fall out of either of those without anyone around to help you out….!
There are reasons, as well as tests and data behind the osha regulations for elevated work and which harness fits which situation correctly. I do not fault JRB for trying to relay the importance of safety. He is correct about many things such as slack management and being tied off. I want to be clear that I anm not anttacking him or picking on him, I am simply trying to relay the correct information because giving an untrained opinion over what you “believe is safe” over the internet can mislead someone into thinking he is some sort of subject matter expert and his advice in this instance, goes against what any elevated positioning training or governing agency says. Ultimately everyone is responsible for their personal safety. We take risks every time we drive, or shoot a firearm, and climb a tree… it is up to you to do what you are comfortable with doing.
 
Cbigbear said:
I see this often with FBH.
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You are not wrong and that speaks to the bigger problem with many elevated hunters, lack of actual training and safe practices. However in that instance his connection is dorsal. Were he to slip or fall it would drop him down face first toward the tree where he could use his arms and feet to push off or recover. I know I don’t have to explain this to you because you did tree work, but for others, having the connection between the shoulder blades under tension, is quite a bit different than a forward sternum connection fully weighted with you pinned to the tree.
 
BTaylor said:
You are still hanging in the tree with no way to get to the ground if the stand or stick breaks. Not hunting off a rope that wont let me get all the way back down regardless of whether I am on a platform or a stand.
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You just offended @Red Beard ,@always89y and @tailgunner all of which climb up and down trees without a long rope to rappel on. They use 2TC which is something else I believe we should all practice some because if something happened like a stick cutting out, you could use your linesman rope as a secondary foot tether and climb down with a sit stand sit method aka 2TC like those guys do. I know it’s not for everyone and if you were hurt badly you couldn’t do it so it’s not a magic cure all, but it is an option and worth at least practicing enough to be able to use it in an emergency pinch. Of course for me personally, I am a rope access guy so rappel is my emergency escape. Even then I still practice 2TC a little bit just in case.
 
Fl Canopy Stalker said:
You just offended @Red Beard ,@always89y and @tailgunner all of which climb up and down trees without a long rope to rappel on. They use 2TC which is something else I believe we should all practice some because if something happened like a stick cutting out, you could use your linesman rope as a secondary foot tether and climb down with a sit stand sit method aka 2TC like those guys do. I know it’s not for everyone and if you were hurt badly you couldn’t do it so it’s not a magic cure all, but it is an option and worth at least practicing enough to be able to use it in an emergency pinch. Of course for me personally, I am a rope access guy so rappel is my emergency escape. Even then I still practice 2TC a little bit just in case.
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Exactly why I have been messing with a midline system to 2TC. My lineman lives on my saddle so I could do what you mention but also wanted to play with being able to quickly add 2 prussics and clip in a foot loop. I figure the more ways I can learn to do something, the more options I have in a situation that I may need to get myself out of.
 
Treestands are dangerouse anyway....like climbing sticks acording to the fact that all elevated hunting injuries involve one ore the other..yet the whole country sells and uses them.then thinks im the most dangerousr saddle hunter cuz i dont need legstraps or cobra buckles around my waist and still cant even hurt myself...not a scratch.logic at its finest..
Even the american sweet heart with the prettyest smile on the enternets dad took a fall when his stands strap broke.besides squirels and coons chewing the strap you dont know if it was in the path of a wood pecker when you leave them out.
 
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