Adding another aider step to knaider/swaider

[Peterk1234]

So @BassBoysLLP got me thinking with his comment about using a double aider. I do not believe he is doing it this way, and he is using a more traditional double aider on the swaider side. I have not seen his method though, so I will ask him to chime in.

My biggest issue with multiple step aiders is getting the feet in and out. But what if I did not have to? So I just added a whoopie sling I had lying around to the knaider hook for now to see how it would work. I believe the final solution will be to keep one of my tag ends of the webbing long and just sew a loop for a carabiner. However, I have to climb a bit more with this to figure out the pitfalls.

So far, the only negative is that I am now tying a step above my head, although with the simplified method I guess that really is a non issue at this point. I am getting another 2 and a half feet is my guess with each step. I will have to measure, but I think I am getting to seven and half to eight feet high. I guess the question is, is it a big deal to be able to eliminate one step? But 21 to 24 feet with three steps surely does not suck. Climb time is getting more and more condensed. Pete

 

[BassBoysLLP]

That is precisely what I'm doing in your video. Two swaiders. Both attached to opposite feet. Knaider can be integrated in second swaider.

I was looking at getting away from my multi-step aider and this made the most sense to get the same distance without stepping into an aider.

 

[Peterk1234]

That is precisely what I'm doing in your video. Two swaiders. Both attached to opposite feet. Knaider can be integrated in second swaider.

I was looking at getting away from my multi-step aider and this made the most sense to get the same distance without stepping into an aider.

Nice. So I am on the right track. Yours must be much more refined by now because I think you have been doing it for a while. Got any pics of it?

 

[BassBoysLLP]

Nice. So I am on the right track. Yours must be much more refined by now because I think you have been doing it for a while. Got any pics of it?

Not really. It came to me in mid July. Its far from refined but it only took me 10 minutes with the sewing machine. I've been stuck in the Middle East since last week. I hope to return to the US late next week or the following. The knaider has caught on good the last few weeks so I let my "secret" out early. You guys are my favorite form of entertainment in this 116F heat.

 

[DaveT1963]

Will wait for the video showing attaching a Jim Stepp that high over your head - especially while standing on a jim stepp with a lineman's belt. While it is nice to believe most can get 22 foot with 3 stepps, I think in the dark on less then ideal trees that will be unlikely? Love the idea and this is progressing, but we will be limited to the height we can effectively attach a Stepp overhead - and on less then ideal trees.

 

[BassBoysLLP]

Also, I agree. The biggest negative is tying the step above your head. That is the issue with the multi step aider as well. Like the multistep aider, I don't consider this system my go to. Its just a means of getting more out of 5-6 stepps. I hunt a fair amount of hill country and trees with limited cover and find myself hanging over 35 feet from the ground at times to get above the deer. This is for those cases. Most of the time, I don't hunt that high. But these aiders are light and take up no bulk in the pack. For that reason, I'm not sure I want to integrate it into the knaider yet. It may be more practical to carry a stand alone longer swaider. I'll likely just make the second swaider a modular attachment to the knaider but I haven't figured out exactly how I want to do it.

 

[BassBoysLLP]

Will wait for the video showing attaching a Jim Stepp that high over your head - especially while standing on a jim stepp with a lineman's belt. While it is nice to believe most can get 22 foot with 3 stepps, I think in the dark on less then ideal trees that will be unlikely? Love the idea and this is progressing, but we will be limited to the height we can effectively attach a Stepp overhead - and on less then idela trees.

Here you go Dave. Stepp tied above you head at approximately 7.5 feet. Only difference is the aider system in between.

 

[DaveT1963]

Here you go Dave. Stepp tied above you head at approximately 7.5 feet. Only difference is the aider system in between.

first step yes - but he is barely hitting 6- 6.5 foot there after. The problem is you cannot stand straight up while leaning with lineman's belt to attach the next step. I personally will stick to just 6 foot as a max expectation for jim steps with aiders.

 

[Ontariofarmer]

I have been trying modified helium sticks with cam cleats that are 12 and 16 inches long and a multi step aider. I have also used the rope modification and a versa button doing this. I am sure I will begin the season with shorter sticks.
Sort of a compromise between we steps and long sticks. This is likely what I will start the season with. I have not decided what aider is best yet. The choices include an amsteel aider or a black diamond multi step aider or a modified easy aider.

Advantages

1. Easy to attach above your head.
2. More packable than a long stick
3. Get a bit more height than three long sticks and a single step aider
4. Easier to remove the aider and move it up the tree when you have two sets of double steps on a stick compared to we steps
5. Faster to attach than a We step and to get properly attached to the tree.
6. Lighter than a long stick but heavier than a We step.
7. Easier to use above your head if you have a bad shoulder.
8. I can get 24 feet using this method if I need it and add another 2 feet to my platform.

 

[Ontariofarmer]

first step yes - but he is barely hitting 6- 6.5 foot there after. The problem is you cannot stand straight up while leaning with lineman's belt to attach the next step. I personally will stick to just 6 foot as a max expectation for jim steps with aiders.

I agree with Dave it is hard to get the second stick or We step as high.

My first stick is usually 110 inches high if I need extra height. The second and third sticks are 7 to 7.5 feet high.

I use my second stick to place my first stick higher on the tree.

 

[BassBoysLLP]

first step yes - but he is barely hitting 6- 6.5 foot there after. The problem is you cannot stand straight up while leaning with lineman's belt to attach the next step. I personally will stick to just 6 foot as a max expectation for jim steps with aiders.

I have no issues gettting 7 feet. I'm only 5'9" barefoot. Andrew looks like he is around 6', so I would guess he's getting higher.

 

[DaveT1963]

Not doubting you or him Bass, but in the video if he stood straight up on stepp he is only getting right at 6 foot after he leaves the ground. And I agree 7 foot is possible with practice - but it wont be easy under hunting conditions and on less then perfect trees. Since you can get 6+ foot with a Stepp - to me it makes far more sense to add 1# to package and carry 1 extra stepp so you can keep the spacing at 6 foot or less.

 

[Peterk1234]

Not doubting you or him Bass, but in the video if he stood straight up on stepp he is only getting right at 6 foot after he leaves the ground. And I agree 7 foot is possible with practice - but it wont be easy under hunting conditions and on less then perfect trees. Since you can get 6+ foot with a Stepp - to me it makes far more sense to add 1# to package and carry 1 extra stepp so you can keep the spacing at 6 foot or less.

I think I am in total agreement with you. I watched my own video a few more times and realized a couple of potential issues. First, things are starting to get busy. Three things are hooked to the step. And there are more lines dangling around. So the extra care to deal with more things on the step and another line hanging around, plus tying above the head, probably adds enough additional time where there is not much of an advantage. One extra step will not kill me to carry around. The Swaider/Knaider is so clean and simple. It makes it very fast to move up the tree. And I find it very safe. I have learned that shorter aiders are mores stable. So conversely, longer aiders are more prone to issues like kickout and just overall instability. The knaider is so steady that I can stand on it with no hands against the tree. The Swaider is not much worse, but you start to lose a bit of stability. The aider over my head; different story.

I am still going to mess around with this a bit because like @BassBoysLLP already stated, it can help in certain situations. So it may be worth having a spare whoopie aider in the bag. Plus you have to find the upper limits of things in order to learn what is perfect

 

[kyler1945]

Couldn't you just use your tether at your third aider? It's already weight accounted for. It's probably long enough already.

Girth hitch the tether around your foot, or do a loop big enough in your tether to get your foot in, and you already have a biner/ropeman or biner/friction hitch to use to attach to the stepp.

I'm with you on multiple connection points and moving parts, but it could eliminate one piece of kit.

This may not be worth it to gain a pound for common use - but you hit nail on the head, it's nice to have in select situations.

 

[DaveT1963]

@Peterk1234 - don't get me wrong this is an awesome discussion and you guys are making WE Stepps viable. Heck I might even try them again next season. For me 3 stepps would easily cover 90% of the trees I hunt (15-20 foot high). Lots of good options these days for sure.

 

[benny a gregoire jr.]

Excellent! Question anybody have a knee strap for stability on the swaider?

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk

 

[Peterk1234]

@Peterk1234 - don't get me wrong this is an awesome discussion and you guys are making WE Stepps viable. Heck I might even try them again next season. For me 3 stepps would easily cover 90% of the trees I hunt (15-20 foot high). Lots of good options these days for sure.

@DaveT1963 , I went out after work tonight and played around a bit with the extra aider step. It is amazing how much more complexity has been added into the mix with just one additional move. Or better yet, it just highlights the simplicity of the movements required for the knaider and the swaider. I am not even going to bother making a vid. There is no doubt in my mind that I am quicker and much safer with the just the swaider/knaider. Not to say this cannot be used, like @BassBoysLLP stated above, it is just another tool for when you need it. I lose a lot of stability with an aider that is above my head. And it just starts to get a bit busy with one too many lines.

I am officially done. Now I am just going to wait for you guys to refine the swaider/knaider

Well, maybe I will make one more vid showing how easy it is to secure the WE Step at Chin height and climb. Many folks seem to still be hesitant to commit to the step because they are not comfortable with fastening it to the tree. If I can do it after only four or five months of use, anyone can. I have to admit though, I have set the Step 500 at least times or so Pete

 

[redsquirrel]

@Peterk1234 have you thought about using a red squirrel aider as the swaider? After @swampsnyper came out with the swaider I added that to the red squirrel aider (before I knew it was called a swaider! ). Now I have added your knaider. So my current setup is an adjustable redsquirrel aider with a castration band swaider and a carabiner to hook into the stepp with the knaider on the other leg. I'm 5'6" and I can cam the stepp over just above my head, probably at 6'. The red squirrel aider allows me to add a little more height for just the cost of the ascender on a rope. I noticed that you mentioned in your video you could pull your leg up with the swaider. It's the same concept but I can pull my leg even a little higher with the redsquirrel aider.

 

[BassBoysLLP]

@Peterk1234 have you thought about using a red squirrel aider as the swaider? After @swampsnyper came out with the swaider I added that to the red squirrel aider (before I knew it was called a swaider! ). Now I have added your knaider. So my current setup is an adjustable redsquirrel aider with a castration band swaider and a carabiner to hook into the stepp with the knaider on the other leg. I'm 5'6" and I can cam the stepp over just above my head, probably at 6'. The red squirrel aider allows me to add a little more height for just the cost of the ascender on a rope. I noticed that you mentioned in your video you could pull your leg up with the swaider. It's the same concept but I can pull my leg even a little higher with the redsquirrel aider.

I have red. As you know, I began with your aider system last fall. I liked it because I was multipurposing my tether. I still consider the red squirrel aider superior to the wild edge aider due to the ability to load your leg with the ascender.

That being said, I eventually got into a quandary with my tether. Did I want to use my tether as a secondary lineman's belt? Or did I want to use it as part of my aider system? I could use the swaider in conjunction with the ropeman to get some adjustability but at the end of the day there was more value in having the tether as a secondary lineman's belt. If the adjustability was necessary with the swaider, it made more sense to add a cinch buckle. But to be honest, you really don't need the ability to cinch it up. Plus, the swaider packs up so small.

My swaider is slightly different than Peters. It still has the main swaider component that gives it it's name (foot cinch), but I've done away with the extra carabiner and shock cord. As I mentioned above, my tether is my secondary lineman's belt and it is girth hitched to my saddle for that particular use with carabiner and ropeman ready for action. To use the swaider, I simply repurpose this tether carabiner and use it exactly like shown on the video. With your foot cinched to the webbing loop (i.e. swaider), lift up on the tether carabiner and clip into the stepp. Proceed. You can add the bungee cordage to the tether carabiner, but I personally find it unnecessary and a bit of a potential for noise.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

[BassBoysLLP]

@DaveT1963 , I went out after work tonight and played around a bit with the extra aider step. It is amazing how much more complexity has been added into the mix with just one additional move. Or better yet, it just highlights the simplicity of the movements required for the knaider and the swaider. I am not even going to bother making a vid. There is no doubt in my mind that I am quicker and much safer with the just the swaider/knaider. Not to say this cannot be used, like @BassBoysLLP stated above, it is just another tool for when you need it. I lose a lot of stability with an aider that is above my head. And it just starts to get a bit busy with one too many lines.

I am officially done. Now I am just going to wait for you guys to refine the swaider/knaider

Well, maybe I will make one more vid showing how easy it is to secure the WE Step at Chin height and climb. Many folks seem to still be hesitant to commit to the step because they are not comfortable with fastening it to the tree. If I can do it after only four or five months of use, anyone can. I have to admit though, I have set the Step 500 at least times or so Pete

Agreed. The double swaider and knaider is definitely not a primary climbing method. Like the multistep aider I was using before, it is more unstable the farther you are from the stepp. Especially if you can't get a foot into the tree due to leaner. The double swaider is definitely a lesser evil compared to the multistep as you've eliminate the cumbersomeness of fishing your foot into the multistep aider. Despite the multisteps stream line looks, it definitely feels more "busy" than the double swaider system in application.

My only thing left is to find a better way to modularize the second swaider into the knaider. Once that is done, I'm likely ending my DIY on this system. It's come a long ways thanks to people like you. Thank you.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk