Backing up Ropeman on tether

[emrah.oruc.7]

Following.

Emrah


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[kyler1945]

I am also using a prusik knot to backup my ropeman. I don't feel as though i introduce enough slack into my system that would warrant some of the issues that have been discussed on here as of late, but like the original poster mentioned, I too am also new to saddle hunting and have used a backup knot above my ropemans just for my peace of mind up to this point. That being said, and I asked this on one of the other "Ropeman" threads, and not sure if it got lost in the back and forth, but I currently have the prusik close enough to the ropeman that I can manipulate both the ropeman and the prusik simultaneously. I guess my concern and question pertains to if there is a sufficient amount of "tag end" of the tether that the not needs to cinch down, and do I need to increase the distance between my prusik and ropeman (if that is making any sense)? If they are close together as they currently are now, would I be better served increasing the distance between friction hitch and ropeman? Thanks.

Is the point of having the prussic above the ropeman is that you want it to grab if the ropeman fails?

If the failure of the ropeman you are concerned about is it chewing through the rope - if your prussic is right next to it, unloaded, I highly doubt it will grab if the new end of the rope is suddenly 1/2” away. If the failure you’re concerned about is the ropeman breaking but the rope staying intact, yes, it’s fine right next to it.

Having said all of that, tying your tether to your biner underneath your prussic accomplishes the same thing and eliminates one piece of equipment and one mode of failure by leaving out the ropeman.

If the idea is you want two points of failure for your attachment to the tether, why not two tethers? Two bridges? Or two attachment points on the bridge? Two layers of webbing in the saddle instead of one? Two bridge loops on each side?

I’m not being a smart@ss, I’m just pointing out the flawed logic.

What you’re doing certainly mitigates one type of risk(the ropeman breaking), but I’d say that’s the least likely of all failure modes in the system.

 

[Madgrad02]

Is the point of having the prussic above the ropeman is that you want it to grab if the ropeman fails?

If the failure of the ropeman you are concerned about is it chewing through the rope - if your prussic is right next to it, unloaded, I highly doubt it will grab if the new end of the rope is suddenly 1/2” away. If the failure you’re concerned about is the ropeman breaking but the rope staying intact, yes, it’s fine right next to it.

Having said all of that, tying your tether to your biner underneath your prussic accomplishes the same thing and eliminates one piece of equipment and one mode of failure by leaving out the ropeman.

If the idea is you want two points of failure for your attachment to the tether, why not two tethers? Two bridges? Or two attachment points on the bridge? Two layers of webbing in the saddle instead of one? Two bridge loops on each side?

I’m not being a smart@ss, I’m just pointing out the flawed logic.

What you’re doing certainly mitigates one type of risk(the ropeman breaking), but I’d say that’s the least likely of all failure modes in the system.

I understand what you are saying, no offense taken, but it was my trust in the actual ropeman. I have a family I need to come home to, and the ropeman - to me - seemed like the weakest link being such a small piece of equipment. Not coming from climbing background, was basically asking what a safe working distance between the ascender/ knot would need. From your response, obviously I need to look in increasing the distance between the 2, or remove from tether altogether... Thanks for the input.

 

[kyler1945]

I understand what you are saying, no offense taken, but it was my trust in the actual ropeman. I have a family I need to come home to, and the ropeman - to me - seemed like the weakest link being such a small piece of equipment. Not coming from climbing background, was basically asking what a safe working distance between the ascender/ knot would need. From your response, obviously I need to look in increasing the distance between the 2, or remove from tether altogether... Thanks for the input.

Yeh one thing you could do is have a longer prussic. And cinch it somewhat tight a ways away from the ropeman. I still think it’s a bit of a false sense of security though.

I used a ropeman for a very brief period on my tether. I ultimately found no need to adjust a lot, and it wasn’t worth it. Ive hunted several times with tethers that aren’t adjustable once set. I’m tinkering with a few options.

The ropeman is gold on a lineman’s belt. I see the value on a tether for people who adjust a lot. But I’m not one of em.

 

[Sziggy2.0]

I have been following, but some pics would sure go a long way in showing what you guys are trying to explain. This sounds important and I dont want to screw it up.

 

[tmattson]

So I am brand new to this, getting ready to order my first kit, either the Mantis or the Kestrel Flex, leaning towards the Mantis.
A good backup is already in my mind, So if I go with the Mantis, I will get the kit, and also the ropeman1 (my thought was just for the lineman), should I do the same for tether? Also, when I order this, will the ropeman1 come already installed?
Is there a short video of the backup stuff talked about above? Or pictures?
And lastly, what about having two tethers attached at the same time?
Sorry if this sounds dumb but feeling SAFE will be the key to my long term use of the saddle, I want it to work.
Oh and finally, does one have a backup if your climbing steps fail - thinking of worst case scenario maybe like this - up 20 feet, all steps or sticks fall to ground (yeah I know - LOL), I am hanging 20 feet up, nice and safe, now what.

 

[woodsdog2]

Have you used that saddle lately or does it scare you now?

I can't believe I ever used that thing!!!!

 

[woodsdog2]

Is the point of having the prussic above the ropeman is that you want it to grab if the ropeman fails?

If the failure of the ropeman you are concerned about is it chewing through the rope - if your prussic is right next to it, unloaded, I highly doubt it will grab if the new end of the rope is suddenly 1/2” away. If the failure you’re concerned about is the ropeman breaking but the rope staying intact, yes, it’s fine right next to it.

Having said all of that, tying your tether to your biner underneath your prussic accomplishes the same thing and eliminates one piece of equipment and one mode of failure by leaving out the ropeman.

If the idea is you want two points of failure for your attachment to the tether, why not two tethers? Two bridges? Or two attachment points on the bridge? Two layers of webbing in the saddle instead of one? Two bridge loops on each side?

I’m not being a smart@ss, I’m just pointing out the flawed logic.

What you’re doing certainly mitigates one type of risk(the ropeman breaking), but I’d say that’s the least likely of all failure modes in the system.

I understand what you are saying but I want to keep the prussik on my tether and lineman's rope above my Ropeman 1's because I like the ease and convenience of using the Ropeman 1 but because it is mechanical, it could potentially fail so I have that prussic there if needed. But the prussic "cinches" tight and sometimes it is more difficult to adjust quickly so in a hunting situation if I want to adjust my tether length, I've found it much quicker and easier and less movement to use my Ropeman 1 than my prussic.

 

[Scott F]

This is how I back my Ropeman up. Is it needed, probably not, but it isn't an inconvenience whatsoever so I just keep on truck'n along with it.


Similar to @kyler1945, I don't adjust my tether length much at all when it is set and I am pretty sure I could do well with only a friction hitch. That being written, I like my tether close to forehead height most of the time which can restrict some shooting options for me. If a deer is approaching from an angle that is not fitting for my set up it is easy to give some slack to give me a greater shooting options around the tree I am in.

Come to think about it, I had to QUICKLY adjust my Ropeman when I shot my biggest buck to date.

Don't you just love the little things that you think about during the pre-season!

 

[tmattson]

So the red rope is attached to the caribiner? Along with the ropeman?
Sorry, this is all new to me, and the pic is not clear I am looking at.

 

[Scott F]

So the red rope is attached to the caribiner? Along with the ropeman?
Sorry, this is all new to me, and the pic is not clear I am looking at.

You got it. The prusik does in fact connect through the carabiner that the Ropeman is on.
The picture should expand if you click on it, it is a thumbnail.

 

[Tartan]

I’m going to agree with kyler on this one. I’m all for safety precautions given some of the things we’ve seen, but at the same time I don’t see the benefit of doing both. And maybe some risk thinking you’re safe but potentially not.

If you don’t trust the ropeman on a tether Just go with the prussic. Or if you want adjustable go with a distel hitch and a tender of some sort. Like what areotribe uses or a shizll rope tender (pic below). Some prussic cord and a shizll would cost less than a ropeman and give you the same functionality. I’ll be using the distel and a shizll this year bc I may do some one sticking where i expect to have some slack in my tether.



And if you still want to use a ropeman with a backup make sure that prussic is cinched down tight. As was mentioned in case of a rope failure you don’t want that tag end right up against the end of the prussic. Or just thinking here... tie in an alpine butterfly knot above the ropeman. And connect that with another line to your carabiner on the ropeman.

 

[Sziggy2.0]

This is how I back my Ropeman up. Is it needed, probably not, but it isn't an inconvenience whatsoever so I just keep on truck'n along with it.
View attachment 13348

Similar to @kyler1945, I don't adjust my tether length much at all when it is set and I am pretty sure I could do well with only a friction hitch. That being written, I like my tether close to forehead height most of the time which can restrict some shooting options for me. If a deer is approaching from an angle that is not fitting for my set up it is easy to give some slack to give me a greater shooting options around the tree I am in.

Come to think about it, I had to QUICKLY adjust my Ropeman when I shot my biggest buck to date.

Don't you just love the little things that you think about during the pre-season!

Thanks for posting a picture. That is what I was envisioning but wanted to be sure. I think I will stick with just the prussik on my tether. I haven't bothered to buy a ropeman for it yet.

 

[skyjacker]

Another option is to tie into the tag end of the tether? When you tie in try to eliminate slack.

https://saddlehunter.com/community/index.php?threads/kestrel-flex-modifications.14865/#post-224789

 

[woodsdog2]

I’m going to agree with kyler on this one. I’m all for safety precautions given some of the things we’ve seen, but at the same time I don’t see the benefit of doing both. And maybe some risk thinking you’re safe but potentially not.

If you don’t trust the ropeman on a tether Just go with the prussic. Or if you want adjustable go with a distel hitch and a tender of some sort. Like what areotribe uses or a shizzl rope tender (pic below). Some prussic cord and a shizzl would cost less than a ropeman and give you the same functionality. I’ll be using the distel and a shizzl this year bc I may do some one sticking where i expect to have some slack in my tether.

View attachment 13367

And if you still want to use a ropeman with a backup make sure that prussic is cinched down tight. As was mentioned in case of a rope failure you don’t want that tag end right up against the end of the prussic. Or just thinking here... tie in an alpine butterfly knot above the ropeman. And connect that with another line to your carabiner on the ropeman.

I think these may be a better option for me. I'm probably just too fat because I'm telling you, If I don't have my Ropeman 1 on my tether and I want to quickly adjust my tether length using the prussic that came with my Tethrd..... tether, that prussic is super difficult to adjust quickly. I'm probably just over OCD about it but I want that quick adjustability option. The stock prussic lines on my tether from Tethrd is a smaller black rope which I like but it tends to bind more than a larger diameter prussic line in my experience.

 

[Tartan]

I think these may be a better option for me. I'm probably just too fat because I'm telling you, If I don't have my Ropeman 1 on my tether and I want to quickly adjust my tether length using the prussic that came with my Tethrd..... tether, that prussic is super difficult to adjust quickly. I'm probably just over OCD about it but I want that quick adjustability option. The stock prussic lines on my tether from Tethrd is a smaller black rope which I like but it tends to bind more than a larger diameter prussic line in my experience.

I have the same problem with a standard prussic. Once I’ve fully loaded it for a couple of minutes it’s a bear to move.

I’ve found the distel hitch fixes that.

I’ve actually used a ropeman for a couple of years not bc I could adjust, but bc it’s a much more compact system. With the stock prussics on my kestrel it was such a long distance from the top of the hitch to the carabiner I couldn’t get my tether as low as I wanted it for comfort.

Instead of using a very long stock prussic cord I’m now just making one with poachers knots like in the previous picture I posted and have gotten it as short as it can possibly be

 

[HokeyMike]

I’m going to agree with kyler on this one. I’m all for safety precautions given some of the things we’ve seen, but at the same time I don’t see the benefit of doing both. And maybe some risk thinking you’re safe but potentially not.

If you don’t trust the ropeman on a tether Just go with the prussic. Or if you want adjustable go with a distel hitch and a tender of some sort. Like what areotribe uses or a shizll rope tender (pic below). Some prussic cord and a shizll would cost less than a ropeman and give you the same functionality. I’ll be using the distel and a shizll this year bc I may do some one sticking where i expect to have some slack in my tether.

View attachment 13367

And if you still want to use a ropeman with a backup make sure that prussic is cinched down tight. As was mentioned in case of a rope failure you don’t want that tag end right up against the end of the prussic. Or just thinking here... tie in an alpine butterfly knot above the ropeman. And connect that with another line to your carabiner on the ropeman.

how long was the cord use to distel hitch.. I was going to give this a try; I'm assuming you are using 7MM line.

 

[Silvio]

Have

Most major step changes in technology in a given field are made by risk takers, crazy people, people with what we now call mental or learning "disabilities". The real action is on the cutting edge. For some of you old timers - what did most people say when someone came out with an aluminum climbing stick when all that was out there was the stackable steel ones? How was/is a saddle looked at by most people?

Taking risks is fun. Its our human instinct to follow the call to adventure - some way more than others.

But I don't look down on folks who do it- whether for their own gratification, or in the pursuit of something great.

My repeated attempt to speak clearly on risk analysis and the dangers around climbing and falls is not to take the fun out of it. It's because most people doing it don't understand how risky it is, and they aren't here to innovate. They just want to get up a tree cheap, fast, and with light weight.

For those of you who are pushing limits, and living on the cutting edge, thank you. You're awesome.

I have to say, pushing individuals to the cutting edge is disengenuous at best. Most saddle hunters here are very prudent about climbing methods, and repudiate a myopic approach based on safty first. Yes we like the innovation, the hands on DIY, but never give advise that would place someone in jeapordy. I believe you mean well, but not at a cost that someone may try to push the envelope beyond personal limitations. It would only take one poor decision to change your mind...let's keep it safe
May The Magic of The Whitetail Forever Enrich Your Life

 

[kyler1945]

Have

I have to say, pushing individuals to the cutting edge is disengenuous at best. Most saddle hunters here are very prudent about climbing methods, and repudiate a myopic approach based on safty first. Yes we like the innovation, the hands on DIY, but never give advise that would place someone in jeapordy. I believe you mean well, but not at a cost that someone may try to push the envelope beyond personal limitations. It would only take one poor decision to change your mind...let's keep it safe
May The Magic of The Whitetail Forever Enrich Your Life

I think you might have missed the point of my post - I clearly don't want ignorant, inconsiderate, impatient, folks trying risky things. That was my whole point - when I see someone who just wants to get hunting, and does something unsafe or risky, I do my best to point out the risks to them. I try to speak clearly on the topic, and to ask thoughtful questions, and get them thinking about what they are doing.

What I am discussing is innovation, by smart, thoughtful, and creative folks. Do you think the saddle your butt sits in today is all that different than the one that someone came up with 40 years ago? From a design perspective - it really isn't. The only thing that has changed is quality standards have gotten stricter, and materials have improved. What does this do? Well, it takes a lot of the risk out for folks who don't want to design saddles, they just want to hunt from one. But someone HAD to design the first saddle, and then stick their butt in it. I was saluting those people, who most people try to ignore, silence, or shut down their creativity.

Look at my signature. Look at the hundreds of posts I've made in the last several months pointing out risks, and asking people questions, and getting folks to reevaluate their perspective on safety. It was certainly not my intention, nor do I think someone would gather from that post - that I think some uninformed person should do something out of the box if there's no real point in doing so. But I stand firm in my support of folks figuring out how to make things better. It's the human condition.

 

[Tartan]

how long was the cord use to distel hitch.. I was going to give this a try; I'm assuming you are using 7MM line.

I’ll see if I can measure it loop to loop. I just tied the distel and then the poachers knots as short as I could. I’m guessing there’s 10”+ of extra tag end leftover from what was supplied with my kestrel. I haven’t cut the ends yet as I’m still waiting on my shizll to get in the mail. Apparently they were backordered.