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Backup Your Device with a Hedden Knot

J

John RB

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2021
Messages
854
Location
Fort Washington, PA
Personally, I don't use mechanical devices because I find no advantage over non mechanical options for a hunter who is only going 25 feet, no matter how ya climb. But a lot of y'all have em and I am regularly asked how to back em up in the most simple and reliable way. I always recommended the Hedden. I just didn't have test data to show how strong it is until now... and how weak the Prusik is on 8mm rope.





JrbTreeClimbing.com, affiliated with RockNArbor.com
 
Great work @John RB ! Thanks for advocating and teaching safe practices for saddlehunters. The break tests are great as well. I’m sure others would love to see more of that type of content.

I had the same question, what are the differences in the Heddon vs the klemhiest?
 
Skunkworkx said:
Klemheist looks very similar...how do they compare to each other ?
Click to expand...
A Klemheist and a Hedden can be thought of as the same hitch, but pulled in opposite directions. I demonstrated that point somewhere in my initial video on the Hedden. However, the Hedden diverts the load to the top of the helix, which makes a harder bite. Klemheist loads the bottom which is a softer bite. I didn't test Klemheist here but expect it to slip similar or weaker to the prusik. Also, Klemheist is less stable... it can get loose and not be READY when we need it.


JrbTreeClimbing.com, affiliated with RockNArbor.com
 
John RB said:
Also, Klemheist is less stable... it can get loose and not be READY when we need it.
Click to expand...
Can confirm.
The other day a klemheist I fashioned in a pinch let WAY more rope slip through before it bit than I expected. I had a heavy S shape in the bitten portion of my hitch, didn’t sit well with me at all.
 
Keep them coming John! I just had a eureka moment and definitely will try the Hedden….can’t believe I’ve never used it as many times as I have used backups and tried different ones.
 
I've had the Klemheist 'eat' my rope 4, 5 or 6 times in the last few years...

Screenshot_20210516-153804_Gallery.jpg This is once, I think I have more pictures in my phone?

Yep, here's another time. 82FCDB61-F39C-4AD6-842D-4231951A917C.png
 
Last edited:
phatkaw said:
I've had the Klemheist 'eat' my rope 4, 5 or 6 times in the last few years...

View attachment 97411 This is once, I think I have more pictures in my phone?

Yep, here's another time. View attachment 97413
Click to expand...
I can't say I have experienced that but I also don't use a Klemheist. I tested it years ago and wasn't impressed. The cord should be about 75% the rope diameter and the rope should be a reputable climbing rope. The ones in the photo aren't something I recognize.

JrbTreeClimbing.com, affiliated with RockNArbor.com
 
phatkaw said:
I've had the Klemheist 'eat' my rope 4, 5 or 6 times in the last few years...

View attachment 97411 This is once, I think I have more pictures in my phone?

Yep, here's another time. View attachment 97413
Click to expand...
I finally had time to play with the Klemheist and had these observations:
1. See photo. I needed 4 wraps on a Klemheist to get usable performance and used 7mm cord on 9.5mm rope. That's a good ratio: 74% Note: don't generally recommend 8mm ropes for single rope applications. Sure, they are plenty strong, but getting enough surface area for adequate hold in wet conditions is a common problem with many hitches using 8mm ropes.
2. When testing with thicker cords, like 90 or 100%, the rope is subject to collape inside the hitch, like you experienced.
3. Flimsy ropes will collapse easier than stiff ropes. I don't recognize the ropes you used. If you don't know the brand and specs of the rope you're on, even if you got it from a saddle supplier, it might not be fit for the application. If the supplier of the rope isn't giving you that information or references to it from the original manufacturer, I wouldn't use the rope or the supplier.
4. Overall, i just don't like the performance. I need 4 wraps for hold but then it gets pretty tight to move after load. As a backup, Hedden outperforms. As a primary friction hitch, I would never use Klemheist given the better alternatives. The Longhorn Agile is getting rave reviews from my team.

6175a982d5b0f6dcefeb276618e83445.jpg


JrbTreeClimbing.com, affiliated with RockNArbor.com
 
That isn’t the Klemheist in the photo, the diagonal bridge from the top doesn’t wrap around the rope at the bottom. Hedden and Klem are tied the same until the end when you decide which bight, or loop goes through the other.
IMG_6571.jpeg
I did come up with the same configuration awhile back.
IMG_6572.jpeg
 
Brocky said:
That isn’t the Klemheist in the photo, the diagonal bridge from the top doesn’t wrap around the rope at the bottom. Hedden and Klem are tied the same until the end when you decide which bight, or loop goes through the other.
View attachment 98001
I did come up with the same configuration awhile back.
View attachment 98002
Click to expand...
It's a Klemheist... after cyclic loading, this is how a 4 wrap Klemheist settles out.

JrbTreeClimbing.com, affiliated with RockNArbor.com
 
Nope, it’s the Hedden, the eye is formed directly from the bottom wrap. The bottom of the diagonal bridge is the eye, after passing through the bottom wrap bight, on the Klemheist.
 
Brocky said:
Nope, it’s the Hedden, the eye is formed directly from the bottom wrap. The bottom of the diagonal bridge is the eye, after passing through the bottom wrap bight, on the Klemheist.
Click to expand...
Brocky, in the Klemheist, the "load loop" routes into the bottom of the Helix. In the Hedden, the load loop routes to the top of the Helix. Duplicating your photo, the top is the Klemheist and the bottom is the Hedden. Now if ya look closely at my photo above in yellow cordage, the load strands also route into the bottom, not the top of the hitch. Its a Klemheist not a Hedden. It's just that I loaded it and advanced it with a short climb so ya can see how it morphs after it settles. Klemheist morphs or collapses. Hedden doesn't. It just bites.
26436593efda6b5a428fbc0295fd6b0b.jpg


JrbTreeClimbing.com, affiliated with RockNArbor.com
 
You’re right, John, I always get them mixed up and should have checked. I’m guessing the settling you’re getting is from a longer eye, if kept short the top wrap won’t migrate south. The longer eye also causes the rope twisting that phatkaw showed.

I find loops to be too many wraps for the amount of friction created, twice the number usually, compared to double eye hitches. There are plenty of single, and double eye hitches that are just as easily tied, and perform so much better.
 
The twist or roll or settling John had was throwing me. I used Klemheist on all of my "lifeline" before transitioning to a saddle and havent seen one do that. That said like @Brocky referenced all of the loops were tied to be pretty short.
 
Brocky said:
You’re right, John, I always get them mixed up and should have checked. I’m guessing the settling you’re getting is from a longer eye, if kept short the top wrap won’t migrate south. The longer eye also causes the rope twisting that phatkaw showed.

I find loops to be too many wraps for the amount of friction created, twice the number usually, compared to double eye hitches. There are plenty of single, and double eye hitches that are just as easily tied, and perform so much better.
Click to expand...
Cool, and thanks. I knew there was zero chance we wouldn't agree after we both took 2nd look, and let me confess that I have my share of mixups over the years. (Yrs ago, I tied the Zeppelin bend wrong forever, for example. ) Back on topic, I am also a proponent of the many better hitches with better performance. But this thread is about a backup, not our primary attachment, and it's likely for the less experienced knot tyers. Ya see, I am regularly reminded that folks like you and I and some of our friends on the Friction Hitch thread are pretty experienced and comfortable with tying and using Friction Hitches compared to the average new saddle hunter who is misled into believing they need device X or device Y. Show them a Michoacán and they think its really complicated and are intimidated to tie it. Thats no crime, and so I suppose complexity is in the eye of the beholder. I believe the folks selling and promoting the devices aren't telling em that you can get stuck on device X or that device Y is prone to slippage on wet rope (or whatever failure mode it has). I am just trying to address those situations by giving them an escape plan and a solid, high confidence backup that's easy to tie. If nothing else, they will have some peace of mind when breaking in a device and learning its nuances. Cheers brother. If I had friends, they'd be smart, helpful dudes like you.

JrbTreeClimbing.com, affiliated with RockNArbor.com
 
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