Boswell’s New Flex Review

[devildog]

I have always used Aerohunter saddles, I started with the Evo then, Kestrel, Kite, Flex, and now the Merlin. I got my Merlin in the day before MO rifle season and sat 6 all day sits in the next two weeks. At first I wasn't sure I liked it as much as my Flex but once I got it dialed in it was great. My only real complaint is I have a hard time finding the linemans loop to reconnect when I am going around tree limbs, other than that it is the most comfortable saddle I have tried yet. I do wish I never sold my Kestrel because it was very comfortable also, but way worse to wear walking in.

 

[denots]

Can anyone who has the saddle tell me the benefit of the third Loop? I guess it just seems arbitrary to me.

 

[denots]

And I definitely cannot see how changing the orientation of the lineman Loop makes it any easier to hook into. The fact that the opening is now horizontal instead of vertical seems that it would make it more difficult. I'm curious as to why this was changed. If anybody has any inside information of how it's supposed to make things better I'd like to hear it. I'm sure it's just like everything else whatever you get accustomed to is just fine.

 

[kyler1945]

I just watched the video.

these are the facts I learned.

the functional height the saddle fully opened is inches less on the new one versus old. One of the entire points of the pleated saddle is to increase surface area while maintaining compact design if desired for walking in or changing things up. If you didn’t want increased surface area - you wouldn’t buy a saddle with increased surface area. So this is a negative. It’s sort of the point of the flex design. This is a fact. It’s not a biased opinion.

I learned that the frame is 1” webbing now, not 1.5”. Can anyone else think Of some saddles made with 1” webbing that MOST users found to be less comfortable than those built with 1.5” webbing? I can. By design, soft saddles Will concentrate pressure along the “frame” or the 1” webbing in this case. Less surface area = more force = less comfort. These are facts, not biased opinions.

I learned that an experienced saddle designer and user put a saddle on, and within minutes identified pressure points created by these design details. You can argue the extent to which these points make a person uncomfortable. But you can’t argue with the physics of how the forces are concentrated in these areas. It’s obvious, and not the result of a biased opinion.

Now, can I recognize the animosity and bias? Sure. I can also identify circumstantial details that are irrelevant to me and other potential users.

I use screw lock biners. I can’t accidentally clip one halfway by grabbing two loops. I ignored this detail because it doesn’t apply to me. That’s my responsibility. However - some other user who uses twist lock biners might see this as not only a bother, but a danger.

I lean in a soft saddle way more than i sit. So the differences between the two saddles probably wouldn’t bother me. I’m able to see that how he uses the saddle dictates to some extent how much the above FACTS come into play. That’s my responsibility. But other uses may sit a bunch, and it may be more important. I know this to be true, because otherwise why are they buying a saddle with more surface area?

Bobby thoughtfully and carefully articulates what he thinks about the saddle. He identified his relationship to the company and design. If someone is going to sit through a 20 minute video and think at the end “I’m not buying a saddle from AH because that guy said AH design bad.” And not “I’m not buying THIS AH saddle, because of these FACTS, and how they relate to MY needs.” Who’s fault is that? The person who does the former, can just as easily buy a saddle because some blowhard wants to make 200.00 from his YouTube channel by fanboying the saddle. The constant there is the consumers responsibility, not the content provider.

if people keep attacking men of thought and reason for the discomfort they create, don’t be surprised when they stop creating the value that comes with that discomfort.

 

[Plebe]

The JX3 is great but this is about a video review. Maybe Boswells input is true. But bias does exist. Just good to recognize it.
I prefer a review from some one who hasn’t had a falling out from the company being reviewed. I would hate to see people turned away from a decent company because of someone’s possible bitterness

I think I could be satisfied with about 6 saddles out of the ten saddles I have tried including the flex if I did not know about the few I prefer.
They all have some pluses and minuses


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

This is often true. And personal preference / fit / individual situation (injuries, fitness level, body shape and size) certainly and necessarily weigh in.

I liked the review. Boswell gives a mostly subjective review ("Why I'm sticking with my flex...) demonstrating his conclusions with observations that seem supportive, if not altogether objective. He doesn't say here's why YOU shouldn't buy this or you should buy something else. He also doesn't altogether hide his potential bias, and it just might be that he keeps saying he didn't design this because he actually doesn't like it or want to be associated with it personally.

He doesn't point out things that are advantageous about the new flex, I'm not sure they occur to him or not. I do think his experience with the saddles is a strong basis for making comparisons, even though it may involve potential bias, assumptions, specific preferences. This isn't an independent review, nor is it billed as such.

There hasn't been a strong voice indicating that the new Flex is the bees knees and major improvement over the original that I've seen. Some have said I like this particular new feature, mostly based on personal preference / fit / individual situation. I've also seen folks state it isn't uncomfortable or they didn't experience pinch points, etc. Not uncomfortable doesn't really move the bar, and most saddles seem to wear differently for different people. It seems with experience Saddle Hunters can sometimes "figure out" how to find better comfort in a specific saddle over time, I think Boswell has that experience.

Anyway, I have a flex (not gen 2) and one thing that baffles me is the now limited color ways.

 

[TNSTAAFL]

I buy and have bought a lot of stuff because people have sung praises for it, whether through YouTube videos or posts here on SH.com. Bins and bins of stuff! So much money!

I appreciate for once having a bit of opinion shared that helps me to not buy something! Bummer for that company, but good for my bank account!


I agree that Bobby presented some hard facts on top of his understandably biased opinions. These were facts that were pretty obvious upon first glance at the new saddles by anyone who has spent time in a saddle. His video only corroborated my suspicions.

 

[kyler1945]

I buy and have bought a lot of stuff because people have sung praises for it, whether through YouTube videos or posts here on SH.com. Bins and bins of stuff! So much money!

I appreciate for once having a bit of opinion shared that helps me to not buy something! Bummer for that company, but good for my bank account!


I agree that Bobby presented some hard facts on top of his understandably biased opinions. These were facts that were pretty obvious upon first glance at the new saddles by anyone who has spent time in a saddle. His video only corroborated my suspicions.

Haha I agree - we need more "don't buy this" videos. I need some storage space back!

 

[Ontariofarmer]

I have always used Aerohunter saddles, I started with the Evo then, Kestrel, Kite, Flex, and now the Merlin. I got my Merlin in the day before MO rifle season and sat 6 all day sits in the next two weeks. At first I wasn't sure I liked it as much as my Flex but once I got it dialed in it was great. My only real complaint is I have a hard time finding the linemans loop to reconnect when I am going around tree limbs, other than that it is the most comfortable saddle I have tried yet. I do wish I never sold my Kestrel because it was very comfortable also, but way worse to wear walking in.

The Merlin sounds not bad from a personal subjective trial of six all day sits from someone who has sat in a lot of saddles


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[gcr0003]

I will say that my first sit or two was awkward and uncomfortable for me. Once I adjusted my set up (tether height, bridge length, etc.) I was able to comfortably (lean) still (near impossible for my fidgeting self) for 6 hours. I haven't had that in many other saddles.

I think all saddles "like" or "prefer" certain tether, bridge and saddle set ups to be comfortable. Just like you may need to let out some tether to be comfortable sitting.

I wonder if Boswell tried different setups then he typically uses or has become accustomed to in order to find that sweet spot. He may have had no desire to find the most comfortable position for this saddle and instead preferred to use a saddle that was already comfortable for his set up.

 

[JASmith]

Bring back the Evo. Bring back the Evo! BRING BACK THE EVO!!!

I wish I could like this twice! Or more

 

[mattsteg]

I just watched the video.

these are the facts I learned.

the functional height the saddle fully opened is inches less on the new one versus old. One of the entire points of the pleated saddle is to increase surface area while maintaining compact design if desired for walking in or changing things up. If you didn’t want increased surface area - you wouldn’t buy a saddle with increased surface area. So this is a negative. It’s sort of the point of the flex design. This is a fact. It’s not a biased opinion.

I learned that the frame is 1” webbing now, not 1.5”. Can anyone else think Of some saddles made with 1” webbing that MOST users found to be less comfortable than those built with 1.5” webbing? I can. By design, soft saddles Will concentrate pressure along the “frame” or the 1” webbing in this case. Less surface area = more force = less comfort. These are facts, not biased opinions.

I learned that an experienced saddle designer and user put a saddle on, and within minutes identified pressure points created by these design details. You can argue the extent to which these points make a person uncomfortable. But you can’t argue with the physics of how the forces are concentrated in these areas. It’s obvious, and not the result of a biased opinion.

Now, can I recognize the animosity and bias? Sure. I can also identify circumstantial details that are irrelevant to me and other potential users.

I use screw lock biners. I can’t accidentally clip one halfway by grabbing two loops. I ignored this detail because it doesn’t apply to me. That’s my responsibility. However - some other user who uses twist lock biners might see this as not only a bother, but a danger.

I lean in a soft saddle way more than i sit. So the differences between the two saddles probably wouldn’t bother me. I’m able to see that how he uses the saddle dictates to some extent how much the above FACTS come into play. That’s my responsibility. But other uses may sit a bunch, and it may be more important. I know this to be true, because otherwise why are they buying a saddle with more surface area?

Bobby thoughtfully and carefully articulates what he thinks about the saddle. He identified his relationship to the company and design. If someone is going to sit through a 20 minute video and think at the end “I’m not buying a saddle from AH because that guy said AH design bad.” And not “I’m not buying THIS AH saddle, because of these FACTS, and how they relate to MY needs.” Who’s fault is that? The person who does the former, can just as easily buy a saddle because some blowhard wants to make 200.00 from his YouTube channel by fanboying the saddle. The constant there is the consumers responsibility, not the content provider.

if people keep attacking men of thought and reason for the discomfort they create, don’t be surprised when they stop creating the value that comes with that discomfort.

Yeah if you've used a saddle before you can very easily identify/guess how important the details pointed out are.

I'd guess for some people, depending on how long they sit and whether they sit/lean/whatever, some of this new voodoo makes sense. However bizarre promoting leg-strap positioning customization may seem...presumably someone needs it...and I guess it looks like you could probably fine-tune the balance of pressure high/low fairly well.

floppy vertical loops vs. rigid horizonal ones look like a miss to me. and again the bizarre focus from AH marketing "For your personal climbing style and comfort, you can switch your lineman’s belt suspension point from your waist to your hips. " Who the bleep cares? I want loops I can clip in to easily and consistently by feel that are located somewhere safe. "comfort" when climbing? Is that even on anyone's radar?

I guess it certainly could be butt-cup comfort perfection...but with marketing pointing out all of these weird non-features and these possible red-flags, I'm less confident.

 

[Plebe]

Ithe functional height the saddle fully opened is inches less on the new one versus old. One of the entire points of the pleated saddle is to increase surface area while maintaining compact design if desired for walking in or changing things up. If you didn’t want increased surface area - you wouldn’t buy a saddle with increased surface area. So this is a negative. It’s sort of the point of the flex design. This is a fact. It’s not a biased opinion.

Opinion is always a factor. Negative for you might be a positive for me (or someone else as below) and visa versa. That's much of the fuel for the market and these often interesting forum dialogues.

Watched the video and I agree about the pressure point on the lower half of the saddle it pulls and puts pressure on my thigh. The upper webbing I actually like where pressure is applied, my flex puts pressure on my lower back where I’ve had issues with my discs and was really uncomfortable. So I always pulled the top under my butt. The Merlin I don’t really have to do that which I like. I have the size 1 and thought the size 2 might help with that but not sure. I’ve owned a kite, mantis, phantom and kestrel. I currently have a og flex and the Merlin. As of now I like the Merlin the best, the pressure the other saddles would put on the waist band would really mess with my discs and would make it extremely uncomfortable. I almost was thinking of going to a loc on but I can’t sit for extended periods of time. As for the loops being to close to each other I understand his point but haven’t experienced accidentally not clipping in to the right loop. I’ll keep an eye on it , seems like a valid point.

 

[gcr0003]

the functional height the saddle fully opened is inches less on the new one versus old. One of the entire points of the pleated saddle is to increase surface area while maintaining compact design if desired for walking in or changing things up. If you didn’t want increased surface area - you wouldn’t buy a saddle with increased surface area. So this is a negative. It’s sort of the point of the flex design. This is a fact. It’s not a biased opinion.

I learned that an experienced saddle designer and user put a saddle on, and within minutes identified pressure points created by these design details. You can argue the extent to which these points make a person uncomfortable. But you can’t argue with the physics of how the forces are concentrated in these areas. It’s obvious, and not the result of a biased opinion.

I’m able to see that how he uses the saddle dictates to some extent how much the above FACTS come into play.

The point of a pleated saddle is more surface area; therefore, if a new design has less surface area it is an indisputable truth that it that is a negative? I don't agree with that. Too much fabric on a pleated saddle can just as easily leave you sitting on the webbing and experiencing pressure points. I went from size 2 flex (old) to a size 1 flex (new) and the size one fit me better and was more comfortable. I am not saying that would be the case for everyone, but it was for me. The only fact there is that the old was larger than the new. The comfort that increase or decrease in fabric provides is subjective, not a fact. The positive or negative the increase or decrease in fabric is is also subjective, not an fact. Your purpose of the pleat saddle is also subjective, not a fact.

You can argue how the forces are concentrated in those areas as well as the extent. There are plenty of factors that effect both i.e. Waist size, butt size, hip size, tether height, bridge length, angle on platform, sitting, leaning etc. Just because a saddle has a certain amount a fabric to distribute the weight across a certain surface area, it doesn't mean it will distribute it over the entire surface area, nor uniformly. For the record I am not saying Boswell is or is not being biased I am only saying that I don't agree with your statements.

The last comment I can agree with. Your body shape, size, and weight combined with how you use the saddle will drive the amount of comfort you find in any given saddle.

 

[gcr0003]

Those girth hitches on the bridge loops bite extremely well and allow you to rotate your hips up or down to transfer pressure from the legs or to the waist.

I'm dumb, this thread I think was suppose to be less about the saddle itself and rather the review and the person reviewing it's relationship with their former company.

I am not trying to defend the saddle, just trying point out it may not suck for everyone. It may suck for the majority of people though and that is all that matters in the grand scheme of people purchasing it. I think of the kite. It was very comfortable but the majority of people preferred the Flex (regardless of whether or not they even tried the Kite) so they discontinued the Kite. That doesn't mean the Kite wasn't a good or comfortable.

Alright I am done. I am planning on getting a Slim @kyler1945 JX3 soon anyway.

 

[kyler1945]

The point of a pleated saddle is more surface area; therefore, if a new design has less surface area it is an indisputable truth that it that is a negative? I don't agree with that. Too much fabric on a pleated saddle can just as easily leave you sitting on the webbing and experiencing pressure points. I went from size 2 flex (old) to a size 1 flex (new) and the size one fit me better and was more comfortable. I am not saying that would be the case for everyone, but it was for me. The only fact there is that the old was larger than the new. The comfort that increase or decrease in fabric provides is subjective, not a fact. The positive or negative the increase or decrease in fabric is is also subjective, not an fact. Your purpose of the pleat saddle is also subjective, not a fact.

You can argue how the forces are concentrated in those areas as well as the extent. There are plenty of factors that effect both i.e. Waist size, butt size, hip size, tether height, bridge length, angle on platform, sitting, leaning etc. Just because a saddle has a certain amount a fabric to distribute the weight across a certain surface area, it doesn't mean it will distribute it over the entire surface area, nor uniformly. For the record I am not saying Boswell is or is not being biased I am only saying that I don't agree with your statements.

The last comment I can agree with. Your body shape, size, and weight combined with how you use the saddle will drive the amount of comfort you find in any given saddle.

What is the design intent behind putting a pleat in a saddle?

I'm making an assumption when I say more surface area is better, that the user understands that I mean "more of their surface area". In other words, the more of your body that you cover with fabric that you transfer said force to, the better off you are. If you buy too big or ill fitting of a saddle, you'll actually decrease surface area having force applied to it, in the way we are describing.

we agree that the thing being too big will create an adverse affect. Bobby points out - if you wear a size one and it fits you well, you might try a size two in this new one because of the decrease in surface area. I guess you can further specify what is a positive correlation with amount of surface area to spread force across, with an increase in comfort, by saying original flex size 2 is an XXL, and a size 1 is a L. The new flex size 2 is an XL, and the size 1 is a M. But I think that's a bit granular. "Increasing the surface area you spread the forces of gravity across increases comfort" seems to make sense.

The point remains, unless I'm totally oblivious to the design intent, that the point of these saddles evolving away from the kestrel is to increase the surface area across which the forces of gravity are transferred. Why is a trophyline comfortable for more users than not? Surface area. Why do most people not like using it? Weigh/bulk. Back to my original question here - what's the design intent of the pleat?


I view all of these reviews completely backwards because of my bias though - the gap between 350+ square inches of surface area and 250 square inches of surface area is much more important to me than the difference in 220 square inches versus 250 square inches of surface area.

 

[Plebe]

The point of a pleated saddle is more surface area; therefore, if a new design has less surface area it is an indisputable truth that it that is a negative? I don't agree with that. Too much fabric on a pleated saddle can just as easily leave you sitting on the webbing and experiencing pressure points. I went from size 2 flex (old) to a size 1 flex (new) and the size one fit me better and was more comfortable. I am not saying that would be the case for everyone, but it was for me. The only fact there is that the old was larger than the new. The comfort that increase or decrease in fabric provides is subjective, not a fact. The positive or negative the increase or decrease in fabric is is also subjective, not an fact. Your purpose of the pleat saddle is also subjective, not a fact.

You can argue how the forces are concentrated in those areas as well as the extent. There are plenty of factors that effect both i.e. Waist size, butt size, hip size, tether height, bridge length, angle on platform, sitting, leaning etc. Just because a saddle has a certain amount a fabric to distribute the weight across a certain surface area, it doesn't mean it will distribute it over the entire surface area, nor uniformly. For the record I am not saying Boswell is or is not being biased I am only saying that I don't agree with your statements.

The last comment I can agree with. Your body shape, size, and weight combined with how you use the saddle will drive the amount of comfort you find in any given saddle.

I also agree it's not as easy as basic math. How a person uses a saddle can result in force vectors that differ greatly from another user, and those positional differences as well as differences in body shape/mass can effect comfort substantially, and may be perceived differently for different users too. The user is part of the equation, literally.

Sensitivity of the areas receiving pressure, directly and indirectly, also play a role and can be very individual as well.

Also, just because there is a more or most comfortable position that a saddle can achieve, that doesn't mean it's the preffered position by a user in a hunting scenario.

Still, generalities can, have, and do emerge and there is value to recognizing them. I appreciate all the folks putting reviews out, and the reviews of reviews as well.

As I weed through what each has to offer and I think about how what's said or left unsaid may apply to me and my decision to purchase a product, which helps my wallet some.

Of course, the buy it all and sell it all method seems to work for many here thanks to the Classifieds...

 

[kyler1945]

Of course, the buy it all and sell it all method seems to work for many here thanks to the Classifieds...

This makes the most sense to me. We are lucky as hell that this weird abundance of used gear, and low risk emerged.

I've given up suggesting "just buy it and sell it if you don't like it", but it really is the best answer due to the subjective nature of equipment and technique implementation. When I progress past offering that advice, my next instinct is to be grateful to anyone who offers their time and effort to producing thought out detailed information, not attacking them or diminishing their value.

 

[Plebe]

What is the design intent behind putting a pleat in a saddle?

I'm making an assumption when I say more surface area is better, that the user understands that I mean "more of their surface area". In other words, the more of your body that you cover with fabric that you transfer said force to, the better off you are.

The point remains, unless I'm totally oblivious to the design intent, that the point of these saddles evolving away from the kestrel is to increase the surface area across which the forces of gravity are transferred. Why is a trophyline comfortable for more users than not? Surface area. Why do most people not like using it? Weigh/bulk. Back to my original question here - what's the design intent of the pleat?

I view all of these reviews completely backwards because of my bias though - the gap between 350+ square inches of surface area and 250 square inches of surface area is much more important to me than the difference in 220 square inches versus 250 square inches of surface area.

But even you'd admit that how that surface area is oriented makes a difference, that's why you said the Millinium M100 isn't half as as comfortable as the JX3, which I dispute....subjectively of course.

 

[kyler1945]

But even you'd admit that how that surface area is oriented makes a difference, that's why you said the Millinium M100 isn't half as as comfortable as the JX3, which I dispute....subjectively of course.

I may have missed the part of the review where Bobby says the orientation of the saddle on your body, and the orientation of your body, is different from flex 1.0 to flex 2.0. But I don’t think I did.

I’m dense sometimes, so I may not be following your logic. Help me haha

 

[tmattson]

Wondering, for those that like to run dual bridges (for safety / redundancy / or whatever reason), if you had bridges for both the inner and outer loops, and adjusted to your liking, would the weight / force be better (maybe evenly) distributed across the four one inch webbings "the frame"?
Not an engineer just asking, and wondering if someone actually played with it.