Discouragement and Realistic Expectations

[tyson12590]

I am entering my 5th season of traditional bowhunting. I compound hunted for about 15 years before going traditional and I was pretty efficient with a compound. I have had a rough start to this season as I gut shot two does that I did not recover and shot another doe in the shoulder last night.

I looked over my hunting log and over my last five seasons hunting traditional I have taken 21 shots. I have killed 8 deer, wounded 8 deer and missed 5. That makes me 8 for 21 or 38% recovery rate. I never shoot past 20 yards at deer and only 3 of my 21 shots have been over 15 yards. When hunting I wait for broadside or quartering away angles. I practice almost every day at minimum every other day.

I know that many guys will not talk about this honestly because it is embarrassing and it also makes bowhunting and traditional bowhunting look bad. I get that. I know some very experienced Trad hunters that are excellent shots who also wound and miss a significant amount of deer every year.

My question is this, what is a realistic shot to kill ratio for traditional bowhunting? Obviously we strive to do a 100% but if I am going to keep hunting trad I need to move forward with realistic expectations.

Thanks in advance.

 

[GCTerpfan]

I can only speak to my experience. The past four seasons (with includes the beginning of this one) I have released 9 arrows and killed 7 deer. The two arrows that didn't kill a deer were both clean misses over the backs of alert deer that reacted on the shot. However, not all of my shots that killed deer were perfect. Last year I shot a Sika deer and hit him in the knuckle of the front shoulder but, was lucky enough to recover him. I also hit a doe last weekend a little back and had to leave her until the next morning but, found her. The doe last weekend was 17 yds and I almost passed up the shot because of the distance. The rest of the deer were all sub 12 yrds.

You said you practice every day but, how do you practice? I shoot at 3d targets almost exclusively from August throughout the season. For me the sight picture shooting at an animal is different. I feel like if I didn't practice on 3d targets I wouldn't do as well in hunting situations. I also practice from my saddle a lot as the season approaches and throughout the season. Do you think your misses are physical or mental? Do you shoot well in practice but, forget form, shot process, etc, when a deer is in front of you?

I can remember when I was young and my dad first got into shooting trad. He wanted to kill a deer so bad with his black widow he fell apart when one was in front of him. I filmed him one night and he overshot four deer in one evening. He looked at me and said he needed to practice more and my response was "practice isn't going to help you". It wasn't an inability to make the shot physically but, mentally.

Something I do I draw, anchor and go through my entire shot process on live deer, except I don't release the arrow, every chance I get. If a deer walks in by itself that I don't intend to shoot I go through the entire process, except for the shooting part. It really seems to help me go through my process correctly when I do intend to release the arrow.

 

[tyson12590]

You said you practice every day but, how do you practice? I shoot at 3d targets almost exclusively from August throughout the season. For me the sight picture shooting at an animal is different. I feel like if I didn't practice on 3d targets I wouldn't do as well in hunting situations. I also practice from my saddle a lot as the season approaches and throughout the season. Do you think your misses are physical or mental? Do you shoot well in practice but, forget form, shot process, etc, when a deer is in front of you?

Thanks for the feedback. I shoot mostly bag targets so yes I will consider getting a 3d target. I think my issues are mostly mental. Sometimes I stay calm and make great shots and others I fall apart and dont pick a spot. The inconsistancy makes it hard to make adjustments.
I do practice often from my saddle and I have always gotten back to anchor during the shot I just dont always settle in.

 

[GeoFish]

I took a burlap bag. Hung it over my bag target. Put one dot in the middle. Practiced picking a a spot. Over and over again, saying to my self pick a spot. Sometimes drawing picking a spot and let down the bow without shooting. 3d targets are nice, but on a real deer, you have to find a hair out of place, something to shoot at. You will not find that on a 3d target. This is from Fred Asbel's books on instinctive shooting.

 

[raisins]

more detailed PM sent.....long story short: shooting instinctively ala' G. Fred Asbell, hardly anyone on Earth is accurate past 20 yards.....to get really good, especially at longer ranges, you have to develop a style that most trad archers would dislike if they knew they'd have to do that going in (so the instinctive shooting bit is what gets them into it, the false promises of some, and then they end up shooting in a style that isn't as fun....in the name of progressing)

 

[GCTerpfan]

more detailed PM sent.....long story short: shooting instinctively ala' G. Fred Asbell, hardly anyone on Earth is accurate past 20 yards.....to get really good, especially at longer ranges, you have to develop a style that most trad archers would dislike if they knew they'd have to do that going in (so the instinctive shooting bit is what gets them into it, the false promises of some, and then they end up shooting in a style that isn't as fun....in the name of progressing)

While I’ll agree that snap shooting instinctively like Asbell is almost impossible to be accurate past twenty yards (impossible for me at any distance), you can build a repeatable shot process and shoot “instinctively” accurately. I use that term to simply mean not consciously use the arrow to aim, I’m under no illusions that my brains not doing that step for me.

I heard someone say once that G Fed Asbell is responsible for getting a very large number of people into shooting Trad, and is responsible for causing almost as many to suffer from target panic.

@tyson12590, I would highly recommend purchasing Tom Clunn’s course on the Push archery and then listening to some podcasts with Joel Turner. I don’treally follow Joel’s advice to a ‘T’ but just understanding “why” we struggle with target panic was a huge help for me.

 

[will4554]

It’s the fever. You seem experienced enough to knock them down, and are obviously giving yourself opportunities. You should just keep at it. Wounding or losing deer isn’t fun. However, I’m sure no coyote ever felt bad about having bitten a deer that got away. Deer are a renewable resource. And the best way to get over a miss or bad hit is to knock one down and put it on ice. I should I also shoot a 3d target almost exclusively. Might be worth looking into

 

[raisins]

While I’ll agree that snap shooting instinctively like Asbell is almost impossible to be accurate past twenty yards (impossible for me at any distance), you can build a repeatable shot process and shoot “instinctively” accurately. I use that term to simply mean not consciously use the arrow to aim, I’m under no illusions that my brains not doing that step for me.

I heard someone say once that G Fed Asbell is responsible for getting a very large number of people into shooting Trad, and is responsible for causing almost as many to suffer from target panic.

@tyson12590, I would highly recommend purchasing Tom Clunn’s course on the Push archery and then listening to some podcasts with Joel Turner. I don’treally follow Joel’s advice to a ‘T’ but just understanding “why” we struggle with target panic was a huge help for me.

if you are using the arrow as a reference, even subconsciously by seeing your sight picture, then you're split vision aiming and not shooting instinctively

i've not met or heard of (other than someone just saying it on the internet) a single person that can hit a 3D deer target in the vitals over 50% of the time at 30 yards that shoots purely instinctively

the test is try to shoot at a small flashlight in the pitch dark where you can't see the arrow at all

professional barebow shooters that very closely use the arrow tip are about as accurate as a below average compound shooter

 

[GCTerpfan]

if you shoot accurately out to 30 yards without a somewhat deliberate use of the arrow as a sight, then you're the first person i've ever met that can do that

i have never claimed to shoot accurately to 30 yards and have no desire to even try. I read your response as to get good at any distance you had to use an aiming method which was what I was disagreeing with. The problem being discussed is a hunting problem and is occurring at sub 20 yards.

To be honest I hate to see the phrase “30yds” even enter a hunting conversation but maybe that’s just me.

 

[will4554]

this is either tough guy rhetoric or you actually believe this and are kind of sociopathic

Thanks for the diagnosis.

 

[raisins]

i have never claimed to shoot accurately to 30 yards and have no desire to even try. I read your response as to get good at any distance you had to use an aiming method which was what I was disagreeing with. The problem being discussed is a hunting problem and is occurring at sub 20 yards.

To be honest I hate to see the phrase “30yds” even enter a hunting conversation but maybe that’s just me.

nah...i said past 20 yards...20 yards and in you can shoot instinctively, it's very do-able at 15 yards......around 20 to 25 yards most people hit a threshold and it starts to fall apart

 

[GCTerpfan]

if you are using the arrow as a reference, even subconsciously by seeing your sight picture, then you're split vision aiming and not shooting instinctively

i've not met or heard of (other than someone just saying it on the internet) a single person that can hit a 3D deer target in the vitals over 50% of the time at 30 yards that shoots purely instinctively

the test is try to shoot at a small flashlight in the pitch dark where you can't see the arrow at all

professional barebow shooters that very closely use the arrow tip are about as accurate as a below average compound shooter

i see this argument on occasion but I don’t know anyone that believes they can shoot in the dark “instinctively”. Also, it’s been a while since I have read Howard Hills book but, I believe he coined the term splitvision and he describes it as consciously seeing the arrow and target but not necessarily using the gap for aiming. What I have always called instinctive and have heard people like Tom Clunn and many others agree is trying to not see the arrow at all and focusing on the target alone but, most of us realize the arrow is in our peripheral vision and our brain is using it to adjust for the shot.

But as far as your accuracy/distances in the comment above I mostly agree with you. I know some people that don’t miss at 20 yards instinctively

 

[JSEXTON23]

I’ve taken 6 shots at deer with a longbow. Recovered 4, missed 1, and non-lethally wounded one. I do not take shots over 20, rarely over 10.

Sounds like a mental/anxiety issue. It’s up to you to choose to make a good shot. If you don’t feel you can, don’t.

 

[raisins]

i see this argument on occasion but I don’t know anyone that believes they can shoot in the dark “instinctively”. Also, it’s been a while since I have read Howard Hills book but, I believe he coined the term splitvision and he describes it as consciously seeing the arrow and target but not necessarily using the gap for aiming. What I have always called instinctive and have heard people like Tom Clunn and many others agree is trying to not see the arrow at all and focusing on the target alone but, most of us realize the arrow is in our peripheral vision and our brain is using it to adjust for the shot.

But as far as your accuracy/distances in the comment above I mostly agree with you. I know some people that don’t miss at 20 yards instinctively

it really is like throwing a baseball, as they often say....the plate to the mound is around 20 yards.....a good shot and a good pitcher can hit a target the size of a catcher's mitt (which is around the size of deer vitals too) about every time

 

[tyson12590]

I appreciate all this feedback but no one has offered what they think is a realistic kill to shot ratio. Id like to hear from someone who has killed 50 or more trad deer or trad hunted for 15 plus years.
Also I use an aiming system if anyone was wondering.

 

[JSEXTON23]

it really is like throwing a baseball, as they often say....the plate to the mound is around 20 yards.....a good shot and a good pitcher can hit a target the size of a catcher's mitt (which is around the size of deer vitals too) about every time

I’m going to disagree. Throwing a baseball is nothing like instinctive archery. First, a vast majority of human beings are not good pitchers. Second, mentally, shooting a bow and throwing a baseball are miles apart. Your brain in not anticipating an explosion when you throw a baseball, as it would when releasing the string on your bow.

Further to the point, a very good pitcher is still learning somewhat of an aiming method with where to release the ball. I would also wager a good pitcher would only hit a stationary mitt 4 out of 10 times on average from 20 yards or more. Maybe 6 out of 10. The average person would hit a stationary mitt from 20 yards with a baseball about 1 out of 10 throws, maybe 2 out of 10.

Even if they did better than my expectations, the margins of that mitt are going to lead to long nights in the woods tracking a lot of times.

 

[JSEXTON23]

I appreciate all this feedback but no one has offered what they think is a realistic kill to shot ratio. Id like to hear from someone who has killed 50 or more trad deer or trad hunted for 15 plus years.
Also I use an aiming system if anyone was wondering.

My experience with good, ethical trad hunters is 75% recovery rates. They knew their limits, kept shots under 10-15 yards, and most importantly had control over their shot process.

You might want to invest in a clicker. You might also want to step back to 20 yards and do 10 draw holds of 15 seconds or more for every one arrow you shoot. You have to get your shot process under control by making the decision to execute, or not shoot at all.

 

[Blacksmith]

I appreciate all this feedback but no one has offered what they think is a realistic kill to shot ratio. Id like to hear from someone who has killed 50 or more trad deer or trad hunted for 15 plus years.
Also I use an aiming system if anyone was wondering.

I've shot about 180 or so over 54 yrs. After going to a COC. 2 Blade, my shot to kill ratio went to close to 100%. Not to brag but I've not lost a deer since that. I know they don't leave the blood trail of some others but I'd rather shoot through them. I shoot instinctive but only out to 20. I believe you need a 3-D target. It helped me because I think it's harder to judge distance to a deer on skinny legs than a bag on the ground. I don't know how to explain that. Just My Opinion, take it for what it's worth.

 

[GCTerpfan]

I appreciate all this feedback but no one has offered what they think is a realistic kill to shot ratio. Id like to hear from someone who has killed 50 or more trad deer or trad hunted for 15 plus years.
Also I use an aiming system if anyone was wondering.

Im not sure you are going to get the info you are looking for. Very few people keep fifteen years or 50 deer worth of records. I gave my last 3.5 seasons because that is what I have memory/pics of and was comparable to your time frame. In general I would say @JSEXTON23’s number is probably a realistic number we should all be striving for.

 

[Phopkins]

This my 49th season, I've killed 100 whitetails as well as elk, mule deer, moose, my goat, turkeys, 1 bear and a couple of other critters.
I know where you're coming from. Years ago I would make a great shot then muff the next one. It was definitely target panic. I tried a bunch of things to get past it. Nothing I did physically fixed it. It truly is a mental game and until you control your emotions you'll have problems.
So, what to do? First realize that not shooting a deer is okay. Even the biggest buck you've ever seen, it's okay if you don't take the shot if you're getting the shakes or can't control yourself. There will be another.
Target panic is the fear of failure. If you're not afraid it can't get you.
As far as acceptable kill per shot percentages, all I can say is it's a lot higher than it used to be for me.
I know I've killed the last 5 bucks I've shot at.
I guess the expectation should a released arrow would be a dead deer. It wont always work out but should way more often than not.

I rescind my earlier statement, I missed a buck last year by deflection.