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GriGri+ mishap….Viewer discretion advised

With the brake hand holding the rope, and the Grigri holding the load, compress the hitch tied above, and while holding the hitch slacked, work the handle with same hand.
 
since we're all here learning... I run the madrock safeguard and while I have a scaffold knot at the end of my 40ft tether, that still leaves ample line for me to fall to the ground at hanging height (usually 18' or so)

I have not thought that the madrock safeguard requires a back-up stopper knot on the brake line - not that such a knot is unsafe, but the safeguard has always appeared to bite the rope well, and IIRC madrock warns that a knot on the brake side can actually impair the safeguard's ability to catch the rope in the event of a fall?
 
mschultz373 said:
...and IIRC madrock warns that a knot on the brake side can actually impair the safeguard's ability to catch the rope in the event of a fall?
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Do they? Exactly as you have it worded here? Exact wording matters quite a bit.

Read post #16 above. This seems to be the most troublesome/misunderstood aspect that has affected all these debates we keep having about the device.

The "safety police" among us might overplay some of the concerns in these debates, but they get the part right about random untrained people spreading incorrect information on the interweb. Myself included. I probably shouldn't be saying anything, but alas...here I am.


Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk
 
TNSTAAFL said:
Do they? Exactly as you have it worded here? Exact wording matters quite a bit.

Read post #16 above. This seems to be the most troublesome/misunderstood aspect that has affected all these debates we keep having about the device.
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I was referencing this thread: https://saddlehunter.com/community/...rom-mad-rock-safeguard-paperwork.32633/page-2

now I'm just confused. can someone plainly tell me if I need to have a stopper knot on the brake side of the safeguard for saddle hunting safety??
 
TNSTAAFL said:
Do they? Exactly as you have it worded here? Exact wording matters quite a bit.

Read post #16 above. This seems to be the most troublesome/misunderstood aspect that has affected all these debates we keep having about the device.

The "safety police" among us might overplay some of the concerns in these debates, but they get the part right about random untrained people spreading incorrect information on the interweb. Myself included. I probably shouldn't be saying anything, but alas...here I am.


Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk
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The directions says you can break the safeguard if it hits a knot or another device on the brake line

 
bowhunthard88 said:
Another note (not to echo anything that has been said), if I'm handling rope friction, I'm personally wearing light weight leather gloves.
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I, of all people know this….being in the fire department, we use gloves for everything….

last night, not sure why i didn’t have my gloves on. it was a little warmer yesterday so maybe…. no, i was stupid and didn’t put them on
 
mschultz373 said:
since we're all here learning... I run the madrock safeguard and while I have a scaffold knot at the end of my 40ft tether, that still leaves ample line for me to fall to the ground at hanging height (usually 18' or so)

I have not thought that the madrock safeguard requires a back-up stopper knot on the brake line - not that such a knot is unsafe, but the safeguard has always appeared to bite the rope well, and IIRC madrock warns that a knot on the brake side can actually impair the safeguard's ability to catch the rope in the event of a fall?
Click to expand...
If the Safeguard has hit the stopper knot the slipping has already occurred, and the stopper kept you from going to the ground.
 
jcassell207 said:
To reply to all questions asked, which hopefully covers what i can see/remember

Canyon elite 9mm is the rope i am running (debating on switching back to my old rope)


I mean, i didn’t plan to use it as a brake “hands free” but i guess that’s what i get for falling

Somebody said the GriGri+ can be loaded 2 different ways? I followed to pictures, made sure my rope was in the correct way.

At the end of the day, i may be going back to carrying a few sticks in and using my lineman belt and tether at the top of the tree for a little while.

I was able to “reenact” the situation here at my house ground level. The GriGri is not like the MadRock meaning if you introduce slack, you will regret it instantly
Click to expand...

In your original post, you said you “went to sit back to get my step…..when i sat back, i kept going”

Did you have your hand on the brake line when you sat back? That’s what I mean that it’s not intended to be hands free. There must be tension on the brake line for it to engage reliably, either by your hand or a friction hitch “third hand”.

This is all clearly laid out in Petzl’s documentation. I’m glad you didn’t get seriously injured and I hope it’s a wake up call to folks here to always read the manufacturer’s documentation on any device you trust your life to. And if going outside the manufacturer recommendations, you assume additional risk and better know exactly what you’re doing.
 
peacemaker636 said:
In your original post, you said you “went to sit back to get my step…..when i sat back, i kept going”

Did you have your hand on the brake line when you sat back? That’s what I mean that it’s not intended to be hands free. There must be tension on the brake line for it to engage reliably, either by your hand or a friction hitch “third hand”.

This is all clearly laid out in Petzl’s documentation. I’m glad you didn’t get seriously injured and I hope it’s a wake up call to folks here to always read the manufacturer’s documentation on any device you trust your life to. And if going outside the manufacturer recommendations, you assume additional risk and better know exactly what you’re doing.
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I one stick, using the Tethrd one stick. When i say “sat back” meaning i was going to make my move up the tree more…

I had tension and was locked and not moving. when i went to lift my stick with my foot, i began to fall. My right hand was on my hip (which is my brake hand), and when i lifted the stick i began to fall…..so that is why i am wondering if i introduced slack in the system

Reaction was grab…results were pictured
 
jcassell207 said:
I one stick, using the Tethrd one stick. When i say “sat back” meaning i was going to make my move up the tree more…

I had tension and was locked and not moving. when i went to lift my stick with my foot, i began to fall. My right hand was on my hip (which is my brake hand), and when i lifted the stick i began to fall…..so that is why i am wondering if i introduced slack in the system

Reaction was grab…results were pictured
Click to expand...
When you stand up to move the tether up the tree is when slack gets introduced to the system. If you didnt grab the tail end of the rope and pull it up to get the device tensioned after the move, the grigri could of slipped down on you.
 
When I tried to 2TC and have my grigri by itself...that didnt go well. I ended up having to put a swabish above the grigri as it kept wanting to slip.
 
mschultz373 said:
I was referencing this thread: https://saddlehunter.com/community/...rom-mad-rock-safeguard-paperwork.32633/page-2

now I'm just confused. can someone plainly tell me if I need to have a stopper knot on the brake side of the safeguard for saddle hunting safety??
Click to expand...
Ya, I'm not helping. I apologize for adding confusion.
SNIPERBBB said:
The directions says you can break the safeguard if it hits a knot or another device on the brake line

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Yup. I'm conflating written words included in the directions with alleged emailed words to a member here. Totally what I myself was saying about random untrained people spreading misunderstanding.

For sure the former is of higher validity in risk assessment than the latter even if the latter:

A) is more logical to me
B) matches my limited real world experience
C) is what I want to be true

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk
 
mschultz373 said:
since we're all here learning... I run the madrock safeguard and while I have a scaffold knot at the end of my 40ft tether, that still leaves ample line for me to fall to the ground at hanging height (usually 18' or so)

I have not thought that the madrock safeguard requires a back-up stopper knot on the brake line - not that such a knot is unsafe, but the safeguard has always appeared to bite the rope well, and IIRC madrock warns that a knot on the brake side can actually impair the safeguard's ability to catch the rope in the event of a fall?
Click to expand...
Yes, there is a possibility in case of a dynamic load the cam of the Safeguard us disengaged because of a stopper knot.

However, in order to get into that situation, Safeguards ability to grab the rope must have already failed once if the stopper is 2ft away from the device.

And it doesn’t matter the cam isn’t grabbing the rope, because you’re being held by your stopper knot.

This is the same as car mfg said you must not use safety belt or you might not hit the air bag in a collision. Yes that is true but you’re not better off in that situation.

Technically they’re saying not to tie a knot at the end of your rope. It’s better to rappel past the tail and freefall 300ft than ”have whole system fail”. If you read the instruction like devil reads the bible.

Tying a prusik under can be an issue as I explained already. Whatever you tie must be bulky and reliable enough to bear your full load when jammed against the device. Overhand bight is fastest and easiest.

I repeat. Madrock has said there is no risk of Safeguard cutting the rope. Madrock has also said there is no risk of the device physically breaking apart. Thus if your knot holds, you cannot fall futher than the knot.
 
samu said:
”Alleged” e-mail from Madrock

View attachment 96055
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Thank you for re-posting that email. Sorry about the use of the word alleged. I'm fumbling all my thoughts and words today it seems. It was the wrong word to try and draw a distinction between directions and other sources of information.

In doing so I wasn't trying to advocate against the information you are sharing. As noted, your info is what I personally want to hear. Just acknowledging the difference between printed directions for widespread dissemination and electronic communications between individuals. It felt only fair to draw such a distinction, especially on a growing public forum.


Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk
 
TNSTAAFL said:
Thank you for re-posting that email. Sorry about the use of the word alleged. I'm fumbling all my thoughts and words today it seems. It was the wrong word to try and draw a distinction between directions and other sources of information.

In doing so I wasn't trying to advocate against the information you are sharing. As noted, your info is what I personally want to hear. Just acknowledging the difference between printed directions for widespread dissemination and electronic communications between individuals. It felt only fair to draw such a distinction, especially on a growing public forum.


Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
You’re absolutely right about being critical about the source. I didn’t need to be so touchy about it.

And I don’t really want to criticize Madrock too much about vague disclaimer either. Jammed system in canyoning is very likely drowning risk.

To put it crudely their goal is to sell devices and avoid lawsuits, not ensure every user is able to abuse their products to maximum extent. It is a belay/rappel device despite being made only after they became aware how people were abusing and modifying Lifeguards.
 
Expected behavior. Belay devices are NOT auto locking devices. You are NEVER supposed to take your hand off the brake side. Madrock OR GriGri

With the increase in popularity of saddle hunting, more incidents like this will occur. Be careful who you take climbing advice from (aka, don't take advice from people who have no formal tech training or work at height training).

You wouldn't go to a dentist who learned from watching root canals videos on YouTube....being 20' up is even more dangerous
 
my take-away, then, is: tie some kind of stopper behind the Safeguard's brake. just to be safe.
 
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