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H2 saddles & TMA news

Gamover06 said:
Unfortunately the world we live in is sue happy and any good lawyer will include any and everyone possible to make a buck. Use at your own risk will not stop a good lawyer. All they have to do is find one post were you talk about hunting from the saddle 15 feet up or one picture of them endorsing the use of their saddle from 15 feet up and they will show intent. Its pretty clear what a saddle is made for when 100% of saddles bought are used not at ground level. If Johnny Cochran can get OJ off I am sure a hand full of people getting hurt from a saddle put out by the same company will be able to win a large settlement.

I sell insurance and one of our customers was brought into a lawsuit for a building that he put the siding on. In the suit every company that stepped foot onto the property while it was being built was being sued. Obviously they wont get money from everyone but they tie everyone into a suit and see what sticks. The suit was over the wrong framing nails being used. Well the plumber didn't use a single framing nail but they are still in the suit.
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This is part of what I was referencing.
 
DaveT1963 said:
No not everyone sues - I have had a life event where I could have sued a doctor for malpractice but I did not. Ruining his life would not have made the error right. I know he did not go out of his way to harm me - it happened. I seriously doubt any saddle maker is out to harm anyone. **** happens, take responsibility for prevention.

This is not aimed at any one person just a rant in general. I stopped trying to blame others for life's misfortunes a long time ago. If there is obvious neglect and intent I get it. Life is risky and we all die - take responsibility for your life - no one forces anyone to climb a damn tree to shoot crap. We should be prepared to assume that risk when we leave the ground. Sorry for being blunt, but we are raising too many sissies (I sure wanted to use another word here but the moderators would climb all over me) these days. Be a man!
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This is the other part of what I was referencing.
 
Nutterbuster said:
Because even hardy, red blooded, anti big government individuals like ourselves will lawyer up when their back is broken and they can't work their trade and feed their families. Or their widows will. They can do that in this country because we saw what happened when little people didn't have recourse. We tried to fix it. Did it work? Not great, but maybe better than in places like Somalia and Afghanistan.

Everybody loves to hate lawyers and insurance, until their home floods, they rear end someone, or their tether snaps. All of us will align with the gubment and other regulators and bean counters when we profit from it. @DaveT1963 works for the airforce if I'm not mistaken. I'm worse, I work for a university.

Understand the way the cookie crumbles, and take it into your calculations. You can wish it weren't so all ya want. Sometimes it just be like that. As saddle hunting grows, the risk of someone getting hurt and suing you goes up. I highly doubt TMA initiated the talks with saddlehunting companies. It was most likely the manufacturers, who have sense enough to see the inevitable and want to not be personally liable for it. Getting TMA to recognize them helps with that. Liability goes down, insurance companies charge less because their risk is lower, and (hopefully, and to me probably) saddles get cheaper because the longterm benefits of testing outweigh the short term disadvantages.

Or that's the current my wrinkled little bunch of fat is sending out.
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True but more and more lawsuits are about greed not need. And just because you need money due to an accident that was due to stupidity or rIsk taking does not mean you deserve compensation but of course you may get it anyway


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Ontariofarmer said:
True but more and more lawsuits are about greed not need. And just because you need money due to an accident that was due to stupidity or rIsk taking does not mean you deserve compensation but of course you may get it anyway


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Pick any institution, process, policy, procedure, tradition, or other mechanic of human society, and I can show you people who abuse it. I doubt that unfounded lawsuits are as prevalent as some seem to think. My dad has been a part of several. My uncle is a lawyer. The crazy, unfounded ones are reported on because they are exceptional. The mundane ones don't get put in the public eye because they're incredibly boring. Or that has been my experience.

Sometimes folks screw up and sue even though the company isn't at fault. TMA works for the manufacturer in that case. That's why saddle companies are looking into TMA membership. Not because they love them some regulations or are jonesing to put shoulder straps on their saddles or want to jack up prices.

I would agree that if you screw up, you should foot the bill. But if I was a saddle manufacturer, I wouldn't bet on everybody sharing that view.

I also think manufacturers should take responsibility for their product. Many do. But the ones that don't should make everybody understand the need for a process to ensure accountability. TMA is mainly about the last paragraph, but I think there may be some residual benefits to end users.
 
Nutterbuster said:
TMA works for the manufacturer in that case. That's why saddle companies are looking into TMA membership.
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I think saddle companies are looking into TMA because that is what is necessary to get into big box stores which is the gateway to growth, visibility and that almighty $.




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DaveT1963 said:
No not everyone sues - I have had a life event where I could have sued a doctor for malpractice but I did not. Ruining his life would not have made the error right. I know he did not go out of his way to harm me - it happened. I seriously doubt any saddle maker is out to harm anyone. **** happens, take responsibility for prevention.

This is not aimed at any one person just a rant in general. I stopped trying to blame others for life's misfortunes a long time ago. If there is obvious neglect and intent I get it. Life is risky and we all die - take responsibility for your life - no one forces anyone to climb a damn tree to shoot crap. We should be prepared to assume that risk when we leave the ground. Sorry for being blunt, but we are raising too many sissies (I sure wanted to use another word here but the moderators would climb all over me) these days. Be a man!
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There's a lot more to being a man then not suing somebody. I got hurt on the job and was out of work two and a half years. The company tried to have the doctor hide the fact that my shoulder was damaged, or the doctor made a mistake and the company didn't know. Point is I don't really give a crap. I got a second opinion which I was entitled to buy workers comp law and ended up having two separate surgeries. No my settlement wasn't huge. Enough to cover my loss wages while out of work. But if it wasn't for that company being required to carry insurance I could have been left homeless with no way to take care of my newborn baby. Losing everything that I have worked so hard for. Did I understand that building scaffolds was a risky job? Of course I did. I climbed hundreds of feet off the ground on a regular basis. I did overhead manual labor with extremely heavy components on a daily basis. I attended all the safety meetings and followed all their safety requirements. Fact of the matter is, **** does happen, and taking legal recourse does not make you less of a man. I can promise you.
As far as the TMA is concerned I don't know much about them. But it seems to me there are a lot like the Louisiana Department of Agriculture which governs, and licenses arborist, horticulturist, landscapers, Etc. That is to say they are a government agency comprised of landscapers, horticulturist, arborist, Etc. It more or less gives the companies who are being governed a seat at the table. I admit my knee-jerk reaction this morning was that there's nothing good that can come out of it. But as long as the manufacturers have a seat at the table their voice is being heard. Better to have them there, then to not.
 
denots said:
As far as the TMA is concerned I don't know much about them. But it seems to me there are a lot like the Louisiana Department of Agriculture which governs, and licenses arborist, horticulturist, landscapers, Etc. That is to say they are a government agency comprised of landscapers, horticulturist, arborist, Etc. It more or less gives the companies who are being governed a seat at the table. I admit my knee-jerk reaction this morning was that there's nothing good that can come out of it. But as long as the manufacturers have a seat at the table their voice is being heard. Better to have them there, then to not.
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TMA is in no way a government agency. It is exactly what the acronym says. An association of treestand manufacturers who accept membership provided members agree to test to ANSI standards that the members have deemed appropriate, and educate and promote what the association holds to be safe practices.

So manufacturers definitely have a seat at the table.
 
Nutterbuster said:
TMA is in no way a government agency. It is exactly what the acronym says. An association of treestand manufacturers who accept membership provided members agree to test to ANSI standards that the members have deemed appropriate, and educate and promote what the association holds to be safe practices.

So manufacturers definitely have a seat at the table.
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I understand but they're not a government agency I was just using that as a comparison and probably a pretty poor one. I was more or less trying to say that it's a good way for manufacturers to self govern
 
denots said:
I understand but they're not a government agency I was just using that as a comparison and probably a pretty poor one. I was more or less trying to say that it's a good way for manufacturers to self govern
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Gotcha. Yea, it's a good way for manufacturers to self-govern. It's to their advantage to self-regulate to keep the government from being forced to step in.

Nobody likes when the government regulates them. Not us, not corporations...nobody. lol
 
Nutterbuster said:
Gotcha. Yea, it's a good way for manufacturers to self-govern. It's to their advantage to self-regulate to keep the government from being forced to step in.

Nobody likes when the government regulates them. Not us, not corporations...nobody. lol
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Almost every industry out there has some sort of organization or assocaition to have some oversight and standards. It also helps when there are proposed regulations by a government agency in that it gives that industry a voice.

For example if state XYZ proposed a new law that would outlaw saddles on public land. It would be harder for the individual companies to argue/campaign against it. If there is that organization out there that represents them all then it gives them a united voice to fight against it.
 
Nutterbuster said:
Pick any institution, process, policy, procedure, tradition, or other mechanic of human society, and I can show you people who abuse it. I doubt that unfounded lawsuits are as prevalent as some seem to think. My dad has been a part of several. My uncle is a lawyer. The crazy, unfounded ones are reported on because they are exceptional. The mundane ones don't get put in the public eye because they're incredibly boring. Or that has been my experience.

Sometimes folks screw up and sue even though the company isn't at fault. TMA works for the manufacturer in that case. That's why saddle companies are looking into TMA membership. Not because they love them some regulations or are jonesing to put shoulder straps on their saddles or want to jack up prices.

I would agree that if you screw up, you should foot the bill. But if I was a saddle manufacturer, I wouldn't bet on everybody sharing that view.

I also think manufacturers should take responsibility for their product. Many do. But the ones that don't should make everybody understand the need for a process to ensure accountability. TMA is mainly about the last paragraph, but I think there may be some residual benefits to end users.
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I would never sue unless I was hurt because of someone else's negligence and the injury was severe.
 
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