Heavy arrow build thread

[DanielB89]

Is there a good reason we should be doing it one way versus another?

I would base this off of what makes the toughest arrow possible? In MY OPINION, to put a 300 grain tip on the front that's made out of SS, Tungsten, or something similar and then follow it up with an aluminum insert just moves the most likely point of breakage to right behind the broadhead. The new arrows I got came with SS 26 grain insert. I am likely going to add a 2" footer on the shaft to be sure I am moving the force created into the shaft and doing my best to not letting it break on impact.

 

[Red Beard]

One comment on inserts and bohning hot melt. I shot 2 arrows over 100x with the 100g gold tip brass insert and never had an issue. I shot 2 arrows with the ethics 200g inserts and lost both inserts in my foam targets within minutes. I had installed them both the same way - scuffed inside of arrow with a rifle cleaning rod and rubbing alcohol. The ethics don't have as many grooves as the gold tip so not as much area for the glue to hold. Learning lesson for me was to only shoot the ethics into bag targets until I glue them in.

Fantastic. My Bohning hot melt just came in the mail yesterday.

 

[Red Beard]

I haven't seen a recommendation from him either way, but going with the 200g insert would definitely open up your range of broadhead selection. Broadhead integrity is most important.

Guess this point is exactly what I'm getting at. #1 is integrity. How should the integrity be divvied up if you already have a finite target weight though? To me, beefier broadhead = more integrity. However, like @DanielB89 just said, a 300gr broadhead would leave the rest of the system lacking in integrity down the line.

So where's ideal breakup? 75/25? 50/50? 25/75?

 

[GTel]

Guess this point is exactly what I'm getting at. #1 is integrity. How should the integrity be divvied up if you already have a finite target weight though? To me, beefier broadhead = more integrity. However, like @DanielB89 just said, a 300gr broadhead would leave the rest of the system lacking in integrity down the line.

So where's ideal breakup? 75/25? 50/50? 25/75?

I'll email Troy now and get his opinion. I definitely won't be using an aluminum insert but think I'm OK with the brass insert bending. They are cheap enough to replace as long as the broadhead isn't destroyed.

Sent from up in a tree

 

[DanielB89]

So where's ideal breakup? 75/25? 50/50? 25/75?

I don't know that you can have an "ideal breakup". But, that can be based off of two things for me. 1) Your target arrow weight. 2) Your target broadhead weight. I have always broken mine down by each portion of the arrow.

For example, I am really wanting a 475 - 525 grain arrow.

The arrow is 10 gpi and 30" long. 300 grains.
Standard (SS) insert is 26 grains.
2" footer (TBD) Assuming ~20 grains
Fletching ~20 grains
Arrow wrap ~14 grains(I use white reflectives)
Nock - ~10 grains

Add all that up an dI have about 370 grains without tip. To get into my ideal weight, I need some where between 100 - 125 grains up front.

Seeing as I already have a SS insert, I am not going to worry with beefing those up. I also have about 9 Simmons Mako broadheads(100 grains) already and I will use them until they give me a reason not too, so I am basically there already.

 

[Allegheny Tom]

Not sure this will help your decision, but you might place into your consideration how compatible a chosen head is with your sharpener.
A lot of single bevels don't have total clearance of the sharpening stone past the ferrule. My 150 gr Samurai are that way in a Lansky or KME, the stone clips the ferrule when sharpening them. But the 200gr Samurai have ferrule clearance so they are so much easier to sharpen.
Several models of broadheads from Alaska Bowhunting Supply do disassemble to make sharpening easier. I did that earlier today. Just be very careful not to round out the screw head.

 

[Gamover06]

I have a question and I don't remember seeing it posed this way yet. Thought I'd ask it here since we have multiple heavy arrow build threads going on right now and I didn't want to start another one.

We all want more weight up front. I have personally found that 300gr at the tip of my arrow makes it fly spectacularly. However, I don't see in the Ashby reports if there is a "best" way to get there in terms of splitting the weight up between the broadhead and the insert. There are so many possible combinations (175/125, 150/150, 125/175, etc.). Is there a good reason we should be doing it one way versus another? Or is it a point of preference? I.e., Some want to be able to use readily available broadheads (125gr) they can pick up in any box store if things go sideways on a hunt away from home.

Having a heavier insert will open up what broadheads you can use but heavier broadheads are stronger in the feral and normally the blades are thicker. I would shoot a 150 or 175 broadhead so that both your insert and broadhead are beefier. A footer with that much weight is not out of the equation also. The ethics inserts with footers in SS look really nice.

 

[weekender21]

I can’t see taking the time to build a “worst case scenario” system and not include a footer of some type. If you’re using a steel insert and broadhead the carbon shaft quickly becomes the week link. And if you’re going full tilt Ashby and trying to find a super low GPI shaft, that shaft is inherently weaker than a thick carbon wall shaft.

I’m still using 75 grain brass inserts with a steel Iron Will footer but will use the steel HIT inserts from IW with my next build.

With a steel insert, footer and top of the line hardened steel broadhead you’ve effectively removed all week links.

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[GTel]

Guess this point is exactly what I'm getting at. #1 is integrity. How should the integrity be divvied up if you already have a finite target weight though? To me, beefier broadhead = more integrity. However, like @DanielB89 just said, a 300gr broadhead would leave the rest of the system lacking in integrity down the line.

So where's ideal breakup? 75/25? 50/50? 25/75?

Troy's response: "I’ve bent them all - when they are anchored in the off side shoulder and they run and torque them.
Best setup has been 100 grain steel insert - sleeves - I guess."

Interpreting the "I guess" to mean that he hasn't used sleeves but is guessing they may help, or may not. I don't think there's anything we can use that won't eventually bend. As he mentions in his videos, feel free to send him stuff and he'll shoot some hogs with them.

At some point, I guess we can over analyze this. So for next season, I'm going to use a bunch of 100g brass inserts and a bunch of 100g stainless inserts with a 315g single bevel head (I'm an extremist) and see if I notice any differences.



Sent from up in a tree

 

[DanielB89]

Troy's response: "I’ve bent them all - when they are anchored in the off side shoulder and they run and torque them.
Best setup has been 100 grain steel insert - sleeves - I guess."

Interpreting the "I guess" to mean that he hasn't used sleeves but is guessing they may help, or may not. I don't think there's anything we can use that won't eventually bend. As he mentions in his videos, feel free to send him stuff and he'll shoot some hogs with them.

At some point, I guess we can over analyze this. So for next season, I'm going to use a bunch of 100g brass inserts and a bunch of 100g stainless inserts with a 315g single bevel head (I'm an extremist) and see if I notice any differences.



Sent from up in a tree

Honestly, I’m not too worried about them bending from an off side shoulder moving back and forth or him falling and rolling and torquing the arrow. I just don’t want it to break on impact.


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[GTel]

Honestly, I’m not too worried about them bending from an off side shoulder moving back and forth or him falling and rolling and torquing the arrow. I just don’t want it to break on impact.


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Agreed. I don't think that stainless inserts or a quality one piece broadhead will break on impact. The brass insert may bend. We'll see!

Sent from up in a tree

 

[Medicgray]

I love this forum!!!! It is awesome how topics are discussed even with people having different opinions on thing. Everyone stays civil and on point. A similar thread to this one turned into a **** show on AT recently.
This is a special place.
I am also building a heavy arrow,shafts are ordered and a friend has the ranch fairy test kit.
I am wondering if anyone has experience with the spinning inserts on the ethics archery site?

You should call Ranch Fairy about the inserts....LOL, I did, he had a great response.
To paraphrase Troy - The guys over there at Ethics know I love their stuff, but I’m not putting anything on/in my Arrows that might compromise arrow integrity!


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[michigandrake]

I just tried out new arrows for my heavy build. A friend ordered the ranch fairy field point test kit and i ordered some vap tko arrows in 300 spine. I shoot 400 spine vap sport now and my bow is tuned to those and shoots bulletholes with them. The whole arrow including tip only weighs about 360 grains total,a twizzler for sure.
My DL is 29.5 and i shoot about 61 pounds out of a halon x.
The new arrows must be way overspined,you guys should have seen the paper tears. I got anywhere from 4 to 6 inch horizontal slashes,nock right.
I thought once i got to 300 grains tip weight it would get better,but it didnt. The bareshaft arrows shot best with a 100 grain tip,kind of the reverse of what i expected.
Those arrows dont work for me at all.
I put 200 grains on my 400 spine arrows and they handled that ok,but 250 made them go nock left.
I guess i will have to try some 350 spine and see if they will cooperate and let me get over 550 grains for my arrows.
I would love to end up close to 600 grains total weight and 20 to 25% FOC.
It is proving more difficult than i thought it would be so far...

At lower draw weights a center-shot bow can be a bear to tune with high FOC arrows. The extra weight up front and lower power really bring the spine into play. Add a zero contact rest and the arrow has nothing flex against to set it's path. Try taking your slightly under spined 400 shaft and move your rest half an arrow diameter outside and see how that works. I have had good luck making "off" tune setups work with just a little tweak to the rest.

 

[loujo61]

At lower draw weights a center-shot bow can be a bear to tune with high FOC arrows. The extra weight up front and lower power really bring the spine into play. Add a zero contact rest and the arrow has nothing flex against to set it's path. Try taking your slightly under spined 400 shaft and move your rest half an arrow diameter outside and see how that works. I have had good luck making "off" tune setups work with just a little tweak to the rest.

Yup, if you can't tune those cams (twist a yolk or shim them) to get that arrow coming off the string straight then more tip weight is just going to send that arrow more side ways. More fletching drag (parachute effect) can help correct this but not with too much tip weight. With a lighter spine arrow and moderate tip weight the flex of the shaft is absorbing that lateral movement then the fletching drag is correcting it.

 

[Bowmanmike]

At lower draw weights a center-shot bow can be a bear to tune with high FOC arrows. The extra weight up front and lower power really bring the spine into play. Add a zero contact rest and the arrow has nothing flex against to set it's path. Try taking your slightly under spined 400 shaft and move your rest half an arrow diameter outside and see how that works. I have had good luck making "off" tune setups work with just a little tweak to the rest.

I have some 340 spine gold tip hunters i will try with the heavy field points. They are bigger diameter arrows than my vaps,so i will have to move my rest down a tad. And you are correct,it is a drop away rest.
I am shooting in a techno league for another month,so i am a little hesitant to mess with my set up right now since it is a hassle to get things dialed back in sometimes.

 

[GTel]

I just tried out new arrows for my heavy build. A friend ordered the ranch fairy field point test kit and i ordered some vap tko arrows in 300 spine. I shoot 400 spine vap sport now and my bow is tuned to those and shoots bulletholes with them. The whole arrow including tip only weighs about 360 grains total,a twizzler for sure.
My DL is 29.5 and i shoot about 61 pounds out of a halon x.
The new arrows must be way overspined,you guys should have seen the paper tears. I got anywhere from 4 to 6 inch horizontal slashes,nock right.
I thought once i got to 300 grains tip weight it would get better,but it didnt. The bareshaft arrows shot best with a 100 grain tip,kind of the reverse of what i expected.
Those arrows dont work for me at all.
I put 200 grains on my 400 spine arrows and they handled that ok,but 250 made them go nock left.
I guess i will have to try some 350 spine and see if they will cooperate and let me get over 550 grains for my arrows.
I would love to end up close to 600 grains total weight and 20 to 25% FOC.
It is proving more difficult than i thought it would be so far...

I had a very similar issue with a similar setup when I started testing the RF heads. I was shooting bullet holes for the past decade using 425g 340sp 29 draw 60#. I tried a 300sp with the RF field tip pack and the tears were over 5" nock left and nock high. I started adjusting the nock height and rest using Instructions on this link (same one I used years ago to tune my 340sp) as well as nock tuning at the same time. It took several days and a few hundred shots to finally get bullet holes. I think my form had a lot to do with it as I got tired and started rushing, so I'd put it down for a few hours and try again. Surprisingly, when I shot the 340sp again, it still shot bullet holes even after all those adjustments. I'm shooting from about 6 feet from paper. I think the lesson learned is that even though the weaker spined arrow shot perfect, my bow still wasn't perfectly tuned and the stronger spine pointed that out. I also needed to load up the 300sp with 400g tips to get bullet holes. I'd probably wait until after the league to start adjusting unless you have a lot of time to make adjustments.

Paper tuning 101

Straight as an arrow.It’s a saying that’s used beyond archery, but archery is its root.Achieving perfect arrow flight, or, getting your arrows to fly as “straight as an arrow,” should be the goal of every archer. If your arrow flight is true, then the sky’s the limit for accuracy.Paper tuning is...

www.lancasterarchery.com

Sent from up in a tree

 

[hokiehunter373]

Guess this point is exactly what I'm getting at. #1 is integrity. How should the integrity be divvied up if you already have a finite target weight though? To me, beefier broadhead = more integrity. However, like @DanielB89 just said, a 300gr broadhead would leave the rest of the system lacking in integrity down the line.

So where's ideal breakup? 75/25? 50/50? 25/75?

I’ve had the same question. When I posed it to Troy he said why not both? So that’s what I’m trying out. Building a half dozen with 150 inserts and using my normal 125 heads and getting some cutthroats. Building a half dozen with 75 inserts and getting 200 cutthroats. Increase in FOC is like .4% and I don’t care about that one way or the other. I think you could argue either way about beefier inserts or beefier broadheads being an advantage. I’m willing to bet they’re pretty equal and hopefully I’ll find out this year.


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[Medicgray]

So after reading 190+responses I’ve got this to say. The arrows on my bows, LHanded. Come off the bow CCW, w bare shaft. Owner at a local pro shop commented this to me once, so I had to test it. I used a camcorder and slowed it down. He was correct. So why do we use right handed as a default.
Matching r feather w r bevel. The idea here is not for penetration, but stable flight. Single bevels will impart some rotational forces causing spin in flight, if the fletching opposes the broadheads natural tendency to rotate the overall spin will be decreased inflight and accuracy will suffer (planing, etc.) even fletched straight, a right wing will spin to the right. As far as the ethics spinning inserts are concerned. I love the theory behind them. To uncouple the rotation speed and mass of the Broadhead from the rotation speed and much less rotational mass of the arrow is genius. In theory, we really want these two native rotational speeds to be equal, but the physics doesn’t add up. The lighter and purpose made (rotation) fletchings, will always spin up faster than the Broadhead. When they are
Coupled together ( normal arrow) the fletchings are over driving the natural rotation speed of the broadhead. This will cause a slight negative pressure on the underside of the broadheads blades. It’s my theory that is what we are try to tuning out when we rotate and tune the broadhead. I ordered a set of spinning inserts and have yet to shoot them. Don’t know if I ever will. I holt melted them into 2 shafts. 1 bare and 1 fletched. There is an ever so slight wiggle in the spinning mechanism. So 1 spin tested fine, the other, not up to par. In early spring I’ll give it another go.
Anyone else ever use bow poundage as a tuning tool, or am I alone in this? I’ve never seen another post regarding this. After the arrows are setup the way I want them, if they are a little weak or a little too stiff, I adjust bow poundage to accommodate. Increase poundage makes arrow dynamically weaker, less stiffer. Same hole broadheads vs field points out as far as my ability allows.


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[Bowmanmike]

I had a very similar issue with a similar setup when I started testing the RF heads. I was shooting bullet holes for the past decade using 425g 340sp 29 draw 60#. I tried a 300sp with the RF field tip pack and the tears were over 5" nock left and nock high. I started adjusting the nock height and rest using Instructions on this link (same one I used years ago to tune my 340sp) as well as nock tuning at the same time. It took several days and a few hundred shots to finally get bullet holes. I think my form had a lot to do with it as I got tired and started rushing, so I'd put it down for a few hours and try again. Surprisingly, when I shot the 340sp again, it still shot bullet holes even after all those adjustments. I'm shooting from about 6 feet from paper. I think the lesson learned is that even though the weaker spined arrow shot perfect, my bow still wasn't perfectly tuned and the stronger spine pointed that out. I also needed to load up the 300sp with 400g tips to get bullet holes. I'd probably wait until after the league to start adjusting unless you have a lot of time to make adjustments.

Paper tuning 101

Straight as an arrow.It’s a saying that’s used beyond archery, but archery is its root.Achieving perfect arrow flight, or, getting your arrows to fly as “straight as an arrow,” should be the goal of every archer. If your arrow flight is true, then the sky’s the limit for accuracy.Paper tuning is...

www.lancasterarchery.com

Sent from up in a tree

You nailed it. I suspected my bow is only very close to tuned perfect for my current arrows. I went through a ton of adjustments last summer when i bought the bow. DL wasn't right and my form wasn't either. I still might put to much pressure on the left side of the grip and torque the bow a tad. I got a bareshaft to impact with the FP at 20 yards,but it was nock right. I called that good enough.
This spring i will have to start over from scratch with the thicker stiffer 340 spine arrows. I really want to get to around 550 grains and 20% foc.

 

[Kurt]

I'd imagine that's some guy with a hunting show? I haven't watched hunting shows since the Cutt'n & Strutt'n Shell Shocked days so never heard of him. Does he have a video showing that?

Sent from up in a tree

Somewhere in this thread someone said it so it must be true.