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I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong with my madrock lifeguard belay.

(Edit: I was typing this, as you were posting your last response.)

I’m curious about the load on the rope. It could be as simple as a higher load requires more force to “Un-brake” the rope. The Mad Rock tends to be a little “on-off” until you get the hang of it. So I weigh 150lbs. Pulling the handle to “Un-brake” doesn’t take as much force as if I weighed 250lbs. The brake on these devices is purely mechanical. The working end of the rope is pulling the cam in to a position where it locks the tag end of the rope against a gate. The more force against the gate, the more force required to open it. The only difference between the Safeguard and Lifeguard is that the Safeguard has a spring to hold the cam back against “minor” tension, which buys you a fraction of a second in the event of a fall if you’re in a lead rope configuration (tending the belay from the ground, while a climber is above you).

Hopefully that makes sense.

What rope are you using? It may be advantageous to try a dynamic rope if you’re using static rope currently. The dynamic rope will “soften” the action of the belay device slightly. Slightly. In our short ascents and descents, I haven’t found any true benefit of using one rope type over the other. Even if you DRT with a Blake’s hitch configuration, you won’t find tremendous benefit of static over dynamic. I thought it would be super spongy, it’s not, really.

Just my nickels worth. Hope you figure it out.


Semper Fi,
Mike
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And if you’re located in Virginia, I’d be willing to meet up and you try a different device and see if works any differently for you.


Semper Fi,
Mike
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Davycrocket684 said:
I can't be a weight thing can it? I'm around 300 with gear on.
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Here's a test to try. It's how I would recommend everyone start with these devices. While standing on the ground attach your rappel rope to the tree as high as you can reach. Attach the Lifeguard to your bridge and give yourself enough slack so you can kind of lean back just slightly away from the tree with your feet against its base sort of stiff legged. While leaning grab the tag end tightly with your off hand, engage the lever and control your your fall backwards with the pressure on your tag end hand. You should be able to practice this enough to where you can control your descent enough to stop with your butt just inches from the ground. This should also answer the weight question as when you're mostly upright most of your weight will still be on your feet and as you lean back further more of the weight will transfer to the Lifeguard. If you have to pull harder in the more horizontal position the weight could be a factor. I have to say though, when I first started using the Safeguard I went 250+ without gear so I was in the 275 range on rappel and I wasn't having the issues you're describing.
 
boyne bowhunter said:
Here's a test to try. It's how I would recommend everyone start with these devices. While standing on the ground attach your rappel rope to the tree as high as you can reach. Attach the Lifeguard to your bridge and give yourself enough slack so you can kind of lean back just slightly away from the tree with your feet against its base sort of stiff legged. While leaning grab the tag end tightly with your off hand, engage the lever and control your your fall backwards with the pressure on your tag end hand. You should be able to practice this enough to where you can control your descent enough to stop with your butt just inches from the ground. This should also answer the weight question as when you're mostly upright most of your weight will still be on your feet and as you lean back further more of the weight will transfer to the Lifeguard. If you have to pull harder in the more horizontal position the weight could be a factor. I have to say though, when I first started using the Safeguard I went 250+ without gear so I was in the 275 range on rappel and I wasn't having the issues you're describing.
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Doing this it works just fine, I have tested this many times. It's just for some reason when I'm hanging there and feet aren't touching the ground, it just won't budge.
 
ShooterMike said:
And if you’re located in Virginia, I’d be willing to meet up and you try a different device and see if works any differently for you.


Semper Fi,
Mike
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I appreciate the offer but I live in north MS. My rope is a Sterling HTP Green Static 9mm Rope. I might try a different rope next year but not this year because I'll be making a rather large purchase early 2021.
 
That rope isn’t the problem. HTP works well with the safeguard/lifeguard.


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Davycrocket684 said:
I appreciate the offer but I live in north MS. My rope is a Sterling HTP Green Static 9mm Rope. I might try a different rope next year but not this year because I'll be making a rather large purchase early 2021.
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I have some of that same rope, and use it with my one-stick / rappell setup. I have both a Safeguard and a Grigri+. I prefer the Grigri+. It is noticeably smoother, and has a panic feature. The panic feature will brake the device if I pull too fast and hard on the release lever, this preventing an accidental fall. That said, I can use the Safeguard equally as well, but it took some familiarity time.


Semper Fi,
Mike
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How close in to your body is the belay device? I like to keep mine close in, where I have better control on the lever. Having an adjustable bridge on the saddle helps accommodate this.


Semper Fi,
Mike
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Agreed on the GriGri being a much smoother brake. I have and use both, but the GriGri is my preferred. I am using even larger rope with both (HTP 10mm) and not having an issue. I also personally think it is overkill to use an autoblock with one of these belay devices as long as you are using your brake hand correctly.
 
I know that not everyone will agree with me, but I use a thicker main rope and a autoblock on my lineman belt. I pull lever open all the way and control the descent with the autoblock. Much smoother for my particular rope combination.

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kobudo said:
I know that not everyone will agree with me, but I use a thicker main rope and a autoblock on my lineman belt. I pull lever open all the way and control the descent with the autoblock. Much smoother for my particular rope combination.

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That’ll work. Kind of defeats the purpose of having a belay device though, but it works. Another option you may want to consider, if this is how you choose to descend, is moving the autoblock to the where the safeguard is and getting rid of the safeguard. If it were me, I’d probably tie the autoblock as a Blake’s Hitch if I were going to descend with it.

But, we’re all different and we each have what works for us. Kind of fun exploring options sometimes.


Semper Fi,
Mike
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I just took this photo a few hours ago with my 9mm Sterling HTP in fluorescent green and a Safeguard.. I rappelled fine. I can't imagine what could be wrong. I have a Lifeguard as well and it works the same.

Here is a photo from last year with the Lifeguard.
 
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Try with your feet a few inches off the ground to pull the handle with one hand and if you have to feed the rope into the top with the other a bit. Are you pulling the handle in the down direction and not sideways?
 
“Lifeguard” - found your problem lol

You want the Safeguard. Even if you got the rappelling to work the Lifeguard is dangerous to use for what we do.


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I used the Lifeguard a lot last year. It is not dangerous and I felt completely safe. A quick pull would always lock it up and it always stayed locked under tension. Just sitting from a slack condition locked it with the 9mm HTP. Pulling the handle always released it smoothly. The Safeguard is a bit more finicky. It seems to require more pressure on the handle to release. I used the Lifeguard about 10 to 12 times while hunting last year.
 
Ok so me being determined as ever to figure this out. I got off work this morning and went into the backyard to figure this out. I called my brother out to film me to show you guys what it was doing and for the first time ever (hence my surprise) it worked just fine. Here is the video.



So I tried this about 5 more times at this height and it just kept working fine. So I got excited and thought I had figured it out. I went about 8 foot up and stopped just to make sure I could get down and I got stuck. I pulled and pulled on that lever until my hand was sore. I even had to stop and have my brother go get some gloves. I put this gloves on and this is what happened.


I finally get down after probably 6 mins of prying on that lever and I decide to try again and the ground level. Here it is back close to the ground, all my weight is in the saddle and it works.


I do appreciate all your guy's help and time. I just can't seem to get this one figured out....
 
As mentioned, it’s probably the Lifeguard is your issue. It’s design to brake, and requires you to feed the rope. It’s used for belaying. To my knowledge, the Safeguard doesn’t brake like that. I’ve only done initial testing with my Safeguard, but it will release and I’m 250lbs. It does take some effort to pull the lever down.
 
Hard to tell, but it looks to me when you are at height, you have a fair amount of tension on the tag end. Looks like you are not comfortable and pulling tag end and handle down at the same time. I could be wrong, but thats what it looked like to me.
 
I don't know that it makes a difference but I don't turn my hand over when I work the lever. When I'm pulling it down I do so with my left palm facing me from the backside of the Lifeguard.
 
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