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I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong with my madrock lifeguard belay.

KYRanger said:
As mentioned, it’s probably the Lifeguard is your issue. It’s design to brake, and requires you to feed the rope. It’s used for belaying. To my knowledge, the Safeguard doesn’t brake like that. I’ve only done initial testing with my Safeguard, but it will release and I’m 250lbs. It does take some effort to pull the lever down.
Click to expand...

They’re both designed to brake. The difference between them is that the Lifeguard has a spring loaded cam, which requires more tension for it to brake, so that when it’s being used as a Lead Rope belay device it doesn’t brake the rope when rope is being fed through. The spring has zero affect on releasing the brake. The spring only affects brake-on.


Semper Fi,
Mike
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
predatorhunter said:
Hard to tell, but it looks to me when you are at height, you have a fair amount of tension on the tag end. Looks like you are not comfortable and pulling tag end and handle down at the same time. I could be wrong, but thats what it looked like to me.
Click to expand...

That’s a great observation.


Semper Fi,
Mike
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Hold the tag end of your line firmly at your right hip and anchor your hand to your hip. Just hold it against your hip. Pull the handle sideways and downwards and loosen your firm grip on the rope until you move. Keep your hand on your hip while doing this. Modulate the lever and your grip on the rope to get moving. This is just correct rappel technique.
 
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Looking at your videos more closely a second time I see you have the tag end loose. Pulling the lever then pivots the whole device on the carabiner and not on the mechanism pivot. You must pull downwards on the tag end to prevent it from rotating on the carabiner which then prevents the release mechanism from operating. Anchoring to your hip will make sure this happens.
 
@Davycrocket684 -

@bj139 nailed it! You want the Lifeguard to be oriented pretty level. In your videos, it’s rotating a lot off of that orientation.

Try to keep it so that the lengthwise dimension of the device is perpendicular to the weighted portion of the rope by keeping good tension on the tag end of the rope.

Then, as you sweep the actuation lever toward the release position, continue to control the orientation of the length of the Lifeguard keeping it nearly perpendicular to the tensioned portion of the rope.

As bj139 stated, it will help to plant your hand low on your hip or thigh. It will also help to have gloves on so that when you let the tag end slip through your grip as you descend, the friction doesn’t give you a rope burn.

I see you feed the tag end toward the Lifeguard in your video, but the better technique is to lessen your grip on the tag end while that hand stays planted on your hip. When you lessen your grip enough with the Lifeguard level and the actuation lever deployed, the rope will begin to slide through the Lifeguard.

The amount of your grip on the tag end will control the speed of your descent. If you get surprised and find that you are dropping too suddenly, release the lever and tighten your grip on the tag end of the rope to stop your descent.


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bj139 said:
Looking at your videos more closely a second time I see you have the tag end loose. Pulling the lever then pivots the whole device on the carabiner and not on the mechanism pivot. You must pull downwards on the tag end to prevent it from rotating on the carabiner which then prevents the release mechanism from operating. Anchoring to your hip will make sure this happens.
Click to expand...
You are correct that I was not holding the tag end down hard at all, I was just holding it low.

If I'm understanding you correctly my problem was that I wasn't holding the tag end tight enough when I pulled on the lever causing the lifeguard to then go "vertical" when it should be more horizontal for it to work correctly?

I did not try the autoblock this morning but I am curious if that will help things where I can pull the tag end tight and then pull the lever on the lifeguard and then squeeze the autoblock to descend?

I'll give your suggestion a shot. I have to work tonight in a hour and have to work a double tomorrow so it'll take a day or so for me to get back to you. Thanks again guys.
 
Davycrocket684 said:
You are correct that I was not holding the tag end down hard at all, I was just holding it low.

If I'm understanding you correctly my problem was that I wasn't holding the tag end tight enough when I pulled on the lever causing the lifeguard to then go "vertical" when it should be more horizontal for it to work correctly?

I did not try the autoblock this morning but I am curious if that will help things where I can pull the tag end tight and then pull the lever on the lifeguard and then squeeze the autoblock to descend?

I'll give your suggestion a shot. I have to work tonight in a hour and have to work a double tomorrow so it'll take a day or so for me to get back to you. Thanks again guys.
Click to expand...
The auto block will substitute for your hand applying enough downward force. About 10 lbs force is required. I measured it in the past. The auto block will work but you could just use your hand. Don't just let go of the tag end. Hold it firmly and regulate your descent by allowing it to go upward slowly. Keep it in control. I think more control of your decent is by the tag end and not the lever.
 
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bj139 said:
The auto block will substitute for your hand applying enough downward force. About 10 lbs force is required. I measured it in the past. The auto block will work but you could just use your hand. Don't just let go of the tag end. Hold it firmly and regulate your descent by allowing it to go upward slowly. Keep it in control. I think more control of your decent is by the tag end and not the lever.
Click to expand...
Yeah that's what I was finding, When I was doing it from the ground this morning I was able to control the descent pretty well to a slow non jumpy descent. The more I think about what you said makes sense because I was not holding the tag end hard at all, just taut more or less. I really want to go try again now.
 
ShooterMike said:
They’re both designed to brake. The difference between them is that the Lifeguard has a spring loaded cam, which requires more tension for it to brake, so that when it’s being used as a Lead Rope belay device it doesn’t brake the rope when rope is being fed through. The spring has zero affect on releasing the brake. The spring only affects brake-on.


Semper Fi,
Mike
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Yes, I know they are both designed to brake, but there is a difference. The spring is the difference and as you said requires more tension. Perhaps his weight is creating that tension. But I can’t say with certainty as I don’t have the lifeguard. There is a reason they made the Safeguard.
 
KYRanger said:
Yes, I know they are both designed to brake, but there is a difference. The spring is the difference and as you said requires more tension. Perhaps his weight is creating that tension. But I can’t say with certainty as I don’t have the lifeguard. There is a reason they made the Safeguard.
Click to expand...

The spring would assist, if anything, in “Un-braking” the device. The spring adds tension to the cam so it doesn’t brake as quickly.


Semper Fi,
Mike
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
KYRanger said:
Sounds like BJ and Daveycrocket have him straightened out....so all good.
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I'm thinking you're right. We'll have to wait a few days for him to try the suggestions. It is pretty tough learning to rapel but once you get the principle and feel, it seems simple.
 
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bj139 said:
I'm thinking you're right. We'll have to wait a few days for him to try the suggestions. It is pretty tough learning to rapel but once you get the principle and feel it seems simple.
Click to expand...

Do you think he might better get the hang of it with a Grigri? They are smoother. Maybe the + might be beneficial for the panic feature.


Semper Fi,
Mike
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ShooterMike said:
Do you think he might better get the hang of it with a Grigri? They are smoother. Maybe the + might be beneficial for the panic feature.


Semper Fi,
Mike
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
If he holds the tag end of the line firmly on his hip there will be no problem, I think. If not, he can run the tag end of the line under his butt and up the other side where the additional friction and support of sitting on the loop, will make it easy.
 
The Grigri+ is a lot simpler to use , especially those of us just starting out. Just gotta make sure you route the rope right and don't yank the handle. Lot more expensive though.
 
SNIPERBBB said:
The Grigri+ is a lot simpler to use , especially those of us just starting out. Just gotta make sure you route the rope right and don't yank the handle. Lot more expensive though.
Click to expand...

If you do yank the handle on the Grigri+ it will activate the “panic feature” and instantly brake. That, I think, is it’s greatest safety benefit.


Semper Fi,
Mike
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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