Is Ashby's #1 goal flawed?

[MattMan81]

I'm sorry but there's not a deer alive that's going to run 90 fps or 60 miles per hour healthy, let alone after a double lung shot.

Where at on the lungs? Hit both towards the back, and I would think they will travel a ways. They say the vessels are smaller the further you get away from the heart. So if you got the outter lungs, they can go a little longer. Not forever. But longer.

 

[EricS]

Here is the response to the email I sent to the ashbybowhunting foundation.org
Another thing that I'd like to point out is that Ashby used to go to butcher shops that were processing deer during gun season and he offered them $5 for each (non fatal) broadhead they found in each of the gun fatal deer. He said he started running out of money. The point is that this is another example of the extent he goes to in order to study arrow lethality.


Tom:

Thank you for forwarding the post. I read the initial post only and not the entire thread. The comments regarding a pass-through by Dr. Ashby are not misleading at all, as BC states. BC is wanting people to disregard the entire medical community that impaled objects retard blood loss. This includes veterinarians and the studies/findings of the Royal College of Veterinary Science that a passthrough is more lethal than having the arrow remain in the animal. This goes against simple Boy Scout First Aid that if you are impaled with an object not to pull the object out as it could make the bleeding worse. This is not theory, it is fact and proven by many – ask any Doctor. An arrow and broadhead kill by hemorrhagic shock, and if you have a 2-3 inch wide cut that goes maybe 2-3 inches deep and maybe gets one lung vs a 1.25” wide cut that passes through an animal and presumably taking out both lungs…1 or more feet of penetration, common sense should prevail here and this is a non-topic. Bullets kill by three methods, hydrostatic shock as long as that projectile is above a certain speed, cavitation and hemorrhagic shock.



We have many videos of 70# compound shooters using what I would consider a light to mid-weight arrow system with an expandable failing to penetrate ribs on 120-140# Texas whitetails and subsequent game camera photos of those deer with scars on them – alive and well and walking around.



Here are a few videos for you to share with your crew online:


https://www.verywellhealth.com/how-to-treat-an-impaled-object-1298804

https://digg.com/2021/paramedic-dem...r-ever-remove-an-impaled-object-from-a-person

https://www.firstaidforfree.com/first-aid-measures-for-an-impaled-object/

https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/pdf/web/ARN14135_TC 4-02x1 C2 INCL FINAL WEB.pdf

https://journals.lww.com/em-news/fulltext/2001/09000/The_Diagnosis__Impalement_Injury.14.aspx


If BC wants to contact us either through the webpage or via email, he is more than welcome to do so and we’ll be glad to help him out, as we are here to help all bowhunters.



Thank you,

Rob



Rob Neilson

Co-Founder & President

Ashby Bowhunting Foundation

www.ashbybowhunting.org

Their response is about what I thought it would be. Cut on contact single bevel setups with enough weight to penetrate heavy bone is no doubt more lethal because they will penetrate the heavy bone in shoulder and spine. If you ever see the entrance of a 2” rage you’ll see the arrow slowing down blood loss is a myth. I could easily stick multiple fingers in the hole with the arrow. Once you have an opening capable of spilling blood faster than the heart can pump that’s good enough.

 

[Allegheny Tom]

Their response is about what I thought it would be. Cut on contact single bevel setups with enough weight to penetrate heavy bone is no doubt more lethal because they will penetrate the heavy bone in shoulder and spine. If you ever see the entrance of a 2” rage you’ll see the arrow slowing down blood loss is a myth. I could easily stick multiple fingers in the hole with the arrow. Once you have an opening capable of spilling blood faster than the heart can pump that’s good enough.

Who said the arrow plugs it to the point of eliminating all blood loss? It does reduce the external bleeding, though. We are trying to maximize external bleeding.
Thats the whole point of wanting an exit wound.
But I guess you guys know more than what the studies have proven. You obviously have more data to back your position than Ashby does.
Check out the long list of MOU (Memorandum Of Understanding) made by highly credible sources that supports Ashby's findings.


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[BCHunter]

Their response is about what I thought it would be. Cut on contact single bevel setups with enough weight to penetrate heavy bone is no doubt more lethal because they will penetrate the heavy bone in shoulder and spine. If you ever see the entrance of a 2” rage you’ll see the arrow slowing down blood loss is a myth. I could easily stick multiple fingers in the hole with the arrow. Once you have an opening capable of spilling blood faster than the heart can pump that’s good enough.

But high lung shots don't leave blood trails...

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[JSEXTON23]

Now we are just trolling.

 

[heretic]

But high lung shots don't leave blood trails...

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I don't see an arrow stickin' out... mUsT haVe bOuNceD oFf tHe sHoulDeR!! Seriously though this "conversation" has been circling the intellectual drain for the past few pages. Thunderchicken season is coming up, go out and shoot something for pete's sake.

 

[BCHunter]

I don't see an arrow stickin' out... mUsT haVe bOuNceD oFf tHe sHoulDeR!! Seriously though this "conversation" has been circling the intellectual drain for the past few pages. Thunderchicken season is coming up, go out and shoot something for pete's sake.

Haha, I agree, sadly season doesn't open up till the 17th.

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[rhagenw]

 

[kyler1945]

But high lung shots don't leave blood trails...

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you think that blood has anything to do with lungs?

hit the deer within an inch of the spine with any broadhead and you’ll get that - dorsal aorta. Hit the deer an inch below that, and you get your high lung hit that doesn’t bleed a lot.

I do appreciate how this thread keeps getting small cups of fuel poured in though. Anything to pass the time!

 

[Weldabeast]

 

[Allegheny Tom]

you think that blood has anything to do with lungs?

hit the deer within an inch of the spine with any broadhead and you’ll get that - dorsal aorta. Hit the deer an inch below that, and you get your high lung hit that doesn’t bleed a lot.

I do appreciate how this thread keeps getting small cups of fuel poured in though. Anything to pass the time!

I was gonna say that.
No way that's a lung hit.

 

[BCHunter]

you think that blood has anything to do with lungs?

hit the deer within an inch of the spine with any broadhead and you’ll get that - dorsal aorta. Hit the deer an inch below that, and you get your high lung hit that doesn’t bleed a lot.

I do appreciate how this thread keeps getting small cups of fuel poured in though. Anything to pass the time!

Haha, I hear ya, just when I think I'm going to walk away.... so I have to say this "but you wouldn't have hit the vein with a tiny COC..."





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[JSEXTON23]

I don't see an arrow stickin' out... mUsT haVe bOuNceD oFf tHe sHoulDeR!! Seriously though this "conversation" has been circling the intellectual drain for the past few pages. Thunderchicken season is coming up, go out and shoot something for pete's sake.

Just don’t forget to bag up your wings and send them to me when you kill some birds. I’ll pay postage.

 

[kyler1945]

Haha, I hear ya, just when I think I'm going to walk away.... so I have to say this "but you wouldn't have hit the vein with a tiny COC..."





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Tiny COC. Zipped through back of both lungs, but high. Severed the dorsal aorta. The deer trotted 30 yards. While I was fumbling around with crap he tipped over. I would have much preferred hitting him 10-12” further forward. But things happen.

 

[MattMan81]

View attachment 46441

Is that the new Rage Tomahawk head?

 

[MattMan81]

Haha, I hear ya, just when I think I'm going to walk away.... so I have to say this "but you wouldn't have hit the vein with a tiny COC..."





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BC kills them in a blue snuggy. The man can shoot what he wants. I have a hard enough time in camo on a private farm. I'll take every advantage I can get. @Weldabeast can you make me one that size in a COC?

 

[Weldabeast]

BC kills them in a blue snuggy. The man can shoot what he wants. I have a hard enough time in camo on a private farm. I'll take every advantage I can get. @Weldabeast can you make me one that size in a COC?

 

[Spence71]

For the record. I’ve shot the same arrows, and same broadheads since I bought my bow. And tomorrow, as if I needed a thread to spark me ordering something, I’ll be the new owner of a set of heavy arrows. And 200gr fixed broadhead, 2 blade. Single bevel. Right up Ashby’s alley.

Just like AleganyTom said. Evidence is in the 40+ years of hard hunting and research.

Will a rage kill a deer. Yep. Will a 650+gr arrow not kill a deer. Yep.

I jokingly said in one of my other posts that there’s no right or wrong here. And that this ranks up there ever popular and endless “what pack is best” threads.

Blondes or brunettes?
Chevy or Ford?
McDonald’s or Burgerking?
Glock or Shield?

Btw- the answers are Brunettes. Chevy. Chic-fil-A. Glock. And heavy arrows.

Hahahaha. Y’all stop yapping and go hunt something. Isn’t it turkey season just about everywhere?



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[Spence71]

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[dougell]

Ashby's theories are sound but not really necessary for whitetails.I want complete penetration every time but you should be able to get that every time on a deer with any good fixed head and a 400+gr arrow out of a normal set up.People read this stuff and then get hung up on busting through heavy bones which isn't necessary or even practical in 99% of the circumstances.The shoulder bones go around the vitals on a broadside deer and the scapula sits above the vitals.If you hit either of them,you essentially missed the vitals abyway and the BH and arrow will not save you in the vast majority of cases.It's the same with mechanicals.A huge mechanical will not kill a deer any faster,regardless of how bad the shot is and in most cases,will actually cause the deer to run further.