What I'm saying is use ur lighted nock during the arrow tuning process and u can see the rear of the arrow misbehaving easier while it's flying thru the air
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Is the High FOC IDEA good or bad for the hunting community?
- Thread starter MattMan81
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AJA VS RF that's like opposite extremes LOL
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Good idea thanks
X2. Put a lighted nock on a bare shaft arrow, shoot it into a block target and watch the light at impact - if it wiggles back and forth/up and down a lot when it hits, you have an arrow flight issue. The angle of the arrow in the target will show you nock high or low, left or right. Adjust your setup accordingly.
A bare shaft with perfect flight will hit with very little nock movement and be pointing exactly back at where you shot from.
X2. Put a lighted nock on a bare shaft arrow, shoot it into a block target and watch the light at impact - if it wiggles back and forth/up and down a lot when it hits, you have an arrow flight issue. The angle of the arrow in the target will show you nock high or low, left or right. Adjust your setup accordingly.
A bare shaft with perfect flight will hit with very little nock movement and be pointing exactly back at where you shot from.
Im gonna disagree with that.
Block targets, hay bales, foam etc can have paths of least resistance. An arrow that's otherwise flying straight upon impact an be diverted as it penetrates the target.
Its one of the things that Ashby specifically addresses. He says not to form conclusions on arrow flight based on the angle of the arrow in the target.
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Bow is out of tune no doubt. Could be your string and cables have stretched nullifying your paper tune from a "few" years ago.
I would suggest verifying your bow is 100% in spec (correct ATA length, cam timing, center shot etc) before you start tuning anything else otherwise you'll be forever chasing a ghost.
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So i did the bare shaft tuning method that calls for shooting a group of regular arrows with a field point and then shoot a group of bare shaft arrows with field points. My bare shafts were around 18 left of my regular arrows. So i moved the rest all the way to the left and it was better but had to put a spacer on rest to get it to move even more and finally got the bare shafts shooting the same spot as the regular shafts. Installed the broad head and yep shooting same spot. Only issue is, the spacer i had to add and now my arrow is pointing way left setting in the rest like nothing is aligned. what could be wrong with my bow? My guess is a bent cam. Any ideas. I also checked to timing marks on my bow and they are good.
Could just be cam lean. Single or double cam? Put a 4' level across your cams. Are they parallel? Is your axle to axle measurement right?
I saved this shot a while ago to help me when I tuned mine..
I saved this shot a while ago to help me when I tuned mine..
I feel pretty confident when I see multiple shots behaving/pointing the same way of being able to tell what my arrow is doing out of the bow. To me this is a quicker and easier way to figure that out than bareshafts through paper. If in doubt, shoot bareshafts through paper.
As long as I do my part......
I like the idea of high FOC and almost fell into that rabbit hole. I didn't want to spend the money on heavy arrows and components to build those arrows when I had almost a dozen RTH arrows that worked well already. I did go to 125g fixed heads(457 TAW) after shooting NAP Spitfires with great success for more than 20 years.
As long as I do my part.....
The thing I did learn to do through watching RF videos is sharpen those fixed blade heads to a mirror finish, stupid sharp condition. I learned that I have to shoot every BH I intend to hunt with and nock tune each to hit correctly. And as long as I do my part and hit the animal where I'm suppose to, they have worked really well. What I love best about them is how little noise they make zipping through animals and how the animals act like they know something just happened to them but don't really know what just happened then the fall over dead.
As long as I do my part!
I like the idea of high FOC and almost fell into that rabbit hole. I didn't want to spend the money on heavy arrows and components to build those arrows when I had almost a dozen RTH arrows that worked well already. I did go to 125g fixed heads(457 TAW) after shooting NAP Spitfires with great success for more than 20 years.
As long as I do my part.....
The thing I did learn to do through watching RF videos is sharpen those fixed blade heads to a mirror finish, stupid sharp condition. I learned that I have to shoot every BH I intend to hunt with and nock tune each to hit correctly. And as long as I do my part and hit the animal where I'm suppose to, they have worked really well. What I love best about them is how little noise they make zipping through animals and how the animals act like they know something just happened to them but don't really know what just happened then the fall over dead.
As long as I do my part!
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My Tribute doesn't have the yoke attachment points like that
That's pretty much the point of heavy arrow/high FOC.
The are a lot of moving parts in our attempt to "do our part". It only takes screwing up just one of those moving parts for the whole encounter to go to crap. But even when we do everything perfectly, we still have to depend on the deer to not screw it up. A sudden movement by them during, or even after our release can lead to the arrow hitting an unintended location like heavy bone.
And even though Ashby describes his concepts as "arrow letality", what he really means is maximum recovery and an exit wound is sometimes critical to actually finding the dead critter. Just killing the animal is not our goal. FINDING it before spoilage or predators do is our goal.
Building the best arrow that we can helps us achieve that goal. There's no such thing as "overkill" when it comes to arrow penetration.
You could say the same thing about bullet penetration. Doesn't mean I'm buying a .460 weatherby to shoot whitetails with.
I agree with everything you said before that. I just believe that we're currently going a little hard on FOC, heavy arrows, and $40-a-piece broadheads. The flip side of the coin is accuracy and a good trajectory, and (in my subjective opinion) accounting for the fact that a shot can be too far back just as readily as it can be too far forward. I'd much rather miss far back with an expandable than a small diameter fixed head, and personally I'd rather miss far back than miss far forwards because a whitetail buck is quite equipped to handle pointy things (say, a testosterone-enraged rival buck's antlers) coming at him in the chest and shoulder areas.
But we're coming from opposite ends of the spectrum. My cheat-stick gets me 90ft-lbs of KE, so in a way I'm indulging in overkill, just in a different way. If I was starting out with a rig that could only generate maybe 40ish ft-lbs, it'd be a totally different calculation. For a stick-bow, I think the whole thing makes more sense. Most wheelie-bow guys are in the high side of that middle, so depending on a host of factors different setups make sense. If you've got the KE to burn, optimizing retaining and delivering it doesn't matter as much and you may want to consider other variables.
Kinda like clippers or no clippers. It all depends.
Kinetic energy is hard for me to wrap my head around....does kinetic energy contribute to penetration at all?.....so I was just play around with the arrow builder/calculator and as I go way off the deep end I'm noticing KE is down into the "only recommend for small game" territory with an arrow that will have mucho penetration potential
The other thing I don't think is discussed enough is what is really happening at a micro level at the impact spot....when we are shooting our targets and the arrow is hitting square and driving in it's all good...but the animals aren't stationary....I imagine so much energy is lost in the arrow trajectory change from the animal moving it's not even funny. Right...so u know the steel barrel broadhead test...do the same with the barrel laying on the ground rolling...the arrow is following a certain path...broadhead impacts into a moving target and now the trajectory is changed instantly and the shaft bends to compensate X amount of times till it can be pulled thru by the momentum of the front of the arrow...
The other thing I don't think is discussed enough is what is really happening at a micro level at the impact spot....when we are shooting our targets and the arrow is hitting square and driving in it's all good...but the animals aren't stationary....I imagine so much energy is lost in the arrow trajectory change from the animal moving it's not even funny. Right...so u know the steel barrel broadhead test...do the same with the barrel laying on the ground rolling...the arrow is following a certain path...broadhead impacts into a moving target and now the trajectory is changed instantly and the shaft bends to compensate X amount of times till it can be pulled thru by the momentum of the front of the arrow...
MNFarmHunter
Well-Known Member
Kinetic energy:
Standing 50 feet away, would you rather be hit by?
1. a baseball traveling 100mph (146fps)
2. a BB traveling 100mph (146fps)
Carrying this over to arrows, a heavier arrow will have more momentum behind it to push that arrow through whereas a lighter arrow will stop quicker even if traveling faster. Going full-nerd, graphing it out would show where the heavier arrow beats the faster arrow (distance) but at the expense of greater drop.
In my less-than-one-season professional/personal experience, a cut-on-contact fixed head negates some of the heavy arrow advantages whereas a mechanical would absolutely take advantage of the greater kinetic energy.
Standing 50 feet away, would you rather be hit by?
1. a baseball traveling 100mph (146fps)
2. a BB traveling 100mph (146fps)
Carrying this over to arrows, a heavier arrow will have more momentum behind it to push that arrow through whereas a lighter arrow will stop quicker even if traveling faster. Going full-nerd, graphing it out would show where the heavier arrow beats the faster arrow (distance) but at the expense of greater drop.
In my less-than-one-season professional/personal experience, a cut-on-contact fixed head negates some of the heavy arrow advantages whereas a mechanical would absolutely take advantage of the greater kinetic energy.
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You are chasing ghosts...
The bow is out of tune.
If you've got to jack your rest all the way over AND add spacers that tells me your center shot is out to lunch. You are compensating because the arrow is not being launched perfectly straight off the string, it's being thrown sideways.
Tune the bow first, get all measurements in spec. Center shot should be set so arrow sitting on rest is parallel to bow riser
Of my 3 bows that I tuned, 2 were grouping bare shafts and fixed blade broadheads within an inch right from the start and that inch was shooter error (me). No adjustments were needed at all! The third bow I needed to move the rest 1/32" to 1/16" over, that's it. These bows are shooting single bevels on arrows weighing 585 - 640 grains.
Tune the bow first...
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I checked to timing marks on the cams and it is good. What exactly are you referring to that is out of tune?
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Your center shot measurement is taken while your arrow is nocked and sitting on the rest. It is the distance from the arrow center line to the riser which indicates whether your arrow will be leaving the string in a straight line or have the nock end pushed left or right. Ideally, your arrow should be parallel to the riser.
Fletchings correct arrow flight by creating drag which steers the arrow but they hide an improperly tuned bow. That's why bare shaft tuning is used to determine if your bow is in tune because there is no steering effect.
So if your arrow is coming off the string sideways, a bare shaft will impact at one point while a fletched arrow will impact a different point even though your point of aim was the same spot. This is due to the fletchings "correcting" poor arrow flight, which is masking a tuning problem. Now throw on a fixed blade broadhead, which creates front drag combined with the rear drag from the fletchings and you'll wind up with an arrow hitting a third point! The much sought after "bullet hole" from bare shaft tuning lets you know the arrow is being launched perfectly straight and there won't be much if any correction needed from fletchings.
There's more to tuning than just cam timing, which is only one part of the equation. There's cam lean and ATA length along with center shot that should be checked. Once you get the bow spitting arrows perfectly straight, broadhead and arrow tuning is simple.
This is why I keep stressing the point that the bow needs to be in tune first before you try to tune your arrows.
Fletchings correct arrow flight by creating drag which steers the arrow but they hide an improperly tuned bow. That's why bare shaft tuning is used to determine if your bow is in tune because there is no steering effect.
So if your arrow is coming off the string sideways, a bare shaft will impact at one point while a fletched arrow will impact a different point even though your point of aim was the same spot. This is due to the fletchings "correcting" poor arrow flight, which is masking a tuning problem. Now throw on a fixed blade broadhead, which creates front drag combined with the rear drag from the fletchings and you'll wind up with an arrow hitting a third point! The much sought after "bullet hole" from bare shaft tuning lets you know the arrow is being launched perfectly straight and there won't be much if any correction needed from fletchings.
There's more to tuning than just cam timing, which is only one part of the equation. There's cam lean and ATA length along with center shot that should be checked. Once you get the bow spitting arrows perfectly straight, broadhead and arrow tuning is simple.
This is why I keep stressing the point that the bow needs to be in tune first before you try to tune your arrows.
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The problem is I have my bow shooting strait now but for it to shoot strait the rest is way left off of my center shot measurement of 13/16. I haven't measured it but its way more than 13/16. Think maybe I have a bent cam or something