Issue bareshafting

[woodsdog2]

Hi and low or "porpoising" tears are usually more an indicator of cam timing issues. Right and left tears are spine or "fishtailing" issues, e.g. adjustment of centershot, or grip, release. How do you attach to the string? Dloop, direct to string with release? It may be a function of your grip and your anchor position. Also, you may want to check for cam lean and adjust that accordingly. You will always get more paradox closer to release so I agree with other comments that you should start super close. Perhaps forgo paper tuning right now and just try practicing your shooting form if you feel everything else with the bow is pretty good. Sounds like you are over- spined if you're shooting left handed and have left tears.

 

[like.2.fly]

I would say get your short distance shooting the bullet holes first before shooting out to twenty.
It is curious why at 20 they were better tears than 10. The only thing I can think of is if you were using a heavy field point, heavy enough to achieve an EFOC or UEFOC arrow. Maybe that would coincide with what Dr. Ashby says regarding you almost don't need fletching because heavy tip is pulling arrow and it straightened it out... not sure but it is interesting.

The shaft might be in the process of swinging side to side and just happens to hit the target when it's straight. But it does seem like that would be more likely to happen with a fletched shaft that is trying to steer and find center. I'm not sure how much a bare shaft can be steered by just a heavy point and light tail. I guess maybe a little. But it makes most sense to me to tune for bullet holes at point blank range just a few feet after the shaft leaves the bow. If it's good there then it should continue to be pretty good down range, and fletching won't have to work much to keep it straight. If it changes much down range then something is wrong. It is possible to be fooled with bullet holes in paper, again if the shaft is in the process of moving or flexing and just happens to hit straight at that point). But chances are, consistent bare shaft bullet holes at 2 yards are indicating everything is right.

 

[smcchevy]

Have you insert tuned any of the arrows? Have you nock tuned them?

 

[Brian6594]

I was doing the same thing a few weeks ago.
64# 27.5 DL Mathews Vertix. Arrow length 28".
I shot 340 and 300 spine Gold Tip and Easton bare shaft and could not get it.
For a different perspective I took one of my Axis 5 mm 400 spine which are 27"-ish and put 250 gn up front, bare shaft, bullet hole through paper and flew perfect at 20 every shot.
525-530 TAW, had to think outside the box.

 

[JBDaddy]

Wife just saw this post title. Guys. We gotta find a better code word for this.

 

[Bowmanmike]

I was doing the same thing a few weeks ago.
64# 27.5 DL Mathews Vertix. Arrow length 28".
I shot 340 and 300 spine Gold Tip and Easton bare shaft and could not get it.
For a different perspective I took one of my Axis 5 mm 400 spine which are 27"-ish and put 250 gn up front, bare shaft, bullet hole through paper and flew perfect at 20 every shot.
525-530 TAW, had to think outside the box.

That setup sounds.underspined with that much weight up front. I think you have an underlying issue that the light arrows masks..I had the same exact thing going on a couple of months ago,400 spine was perfect,340 and 300 were crazy tail right. For me it was a combination of my grip and my DL was too short,by 1.5". I am shooting 300 spine arrows now with 230 grains up front and am getting bulletholes with bareshaft and fletched. I shot the bareshaft at 30 yds and had a super slight tail right and POI was 1" left of fletched. That could easily be operator error.
I would look deeper into your setup so you don't run the risk of one of those 400 spine arrows blowing up on you.
I shoot a halon x at 60# with 29.5 DL

 

[TJutte]

Recently underwent a similar issue, and solved it. Shooting 70# 28” from a hoyt defiant. 260 spine 29” axis 5mm with 200 grain point weight. Wicked and consistent six inch tear at paper between four and twenty yards.

It was my grip. Torque, even a TINY amount, is a real MF’er.

 

[ofor]

RF recommends bareshaft tuning at 21ft. Apparently that is the magic number for the paradox to level out to straight flight.

 

[Brian6594]

That setup sounds.underspined with that much weight up front. I think you have an underlying issue that the light arrows masks..I had the same exact thing going on a couple of months ago,400 spine was perfect,340 and 300 were crazy tail right. For me it was a combination of my grip and my DL was too short,by 1.5". I am shooting 300 spine arrows now with 230 grains up front and am getting bulletholes with bareshaft and fletched. I shot the bareshaft at 30 yds and had a super slight tail right and POI was 1" left of fletched. That could easily be operator error.
I would look deeper into your setup so you don't run the risk of one of those 400 spine arrows blowing up on you.
I shoot a halon x at 60# with 29.5 DL

I'm still experimenting, my DL is dead on. i have done a lot of the testing at a local shop with a good reputation.i agree that the spine "chart" has them as weak for sure. It has also been my experience that different arrow manufacturers shafts react better on the stiff side. I have a back up bow at 52# 27.5" DL that shoots 28" pierce platinum 340 like lazers.
Let the experiment continue.
I do this stuff year round because I get bored and LOVE archery.

 

[Bowmanmike]

I enjoy tinkering too,that is how you learn stuff. I don't have a bow workshop set up,but i do want to know what happens with adjustments and why it happens.

 

[mattfish]

I think the heavy arrow info being shared so widespread is great. The number of archers it has inspired to experiment and learn more about their equipment is also great.

I am by no means an expert bow mechanic or archer. I do however read, study, experiment, and tinker regularly with my compound bows.

If I had one concern regarding the influx of info regarding a switch to higher FOC , is there isn’t enough focus on fundamentals.

Knowing/ improving the basics is paramount to achieving the desired results. Making an effort to be intimately familiar with your weapon and it’s operation will serve all who wish to experiment with increasing FOC very well. This should be done before attempting it for ones own sanity and best results.

I know it will be sac religious to say it but I saw a RF video where he down plays the techy stuff. Kinda makes me cringe considering the widespread viewership of his videos.

I love THP as well. However a statement made in the video with the RF about not worrying about the angle an animal is at because of EFOC also made me cringe.

Interpretation of a statement can be applied very differently by a wide range of people. That’s why I would like to see more emphasis on knowing your bow, it’s tune, and proper form.

There is a great video available at Lancaster Archery called Self Reliant Bowhunter. It goes into great detail on how to set up , tune and maintain a compound bow.

 

[Squirrels]

So I started this thread and thanks to all those that responded with input. Update: I bare shafted through paper today at 6 feet. I’m getting bullet holes. Ended up with rest centered 1” from riser (spec is 3/4”-3/16”) vertically the top of the arrow just breaks the bottom of the Berger hole. My next dilemma is that I started to sight it in at the 6 feet with bare shaft and I had to move my set all the way out from the riser to get it POA and POI the same. I’m as far out as I can go with the sight.
What’s up with that??


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[Weldabeast]

So I started this thread and thanks to all those that responded with input. Update: I bare shafted through paper today at 6 feet. I’m getting bullet holes. Ended up with rest centered 1” from riser (spec is 3/4”-3/16”) vertically the top of the arrow just breaks the bottom of the Berger hole. My next dilemma is that I started to sight it in at the 6 feet with bare shaft and I had to move my set all the way out from the riser to get it POA and POI the same. I’m as far out as I can go with the sight.
What’s up with that??


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I had to set my bow up similar to what you're describing.....it looks funny but shots good

 

[KyleND]

I would highly recommend to you and anyone that follows most of these bow/arrow tuning threads to google a “Nuts and Bolts of Archery”. You want to click on the PDF file. Since most of us have a lot more time on our hands these days I think it is a must read. I refer to it multiple times a year. It covers everything from initial nock point install, proper form, all the way to some advanced tuning techniques. I went so far as to print it all off and threw it in a binder.

 

[mattfish]

I would highly recommend to you and anyone that follows most of these bow/arrow tuning threads to google a “Nuts and Bolts of Archery”. You want to click on the PDF file. Since most of us have a lot more time on our hands these days I think it is a must read. I refer to it multiple times a year. It covers everything from initial nock point install, proper form, all the way to some advanced tuning techniques. I went so far as to print it all off and threw it in a binder.

This!!!!!!!

 

[Squirrels]

I would highly recommend to you and anyone that follows most of these bow/arrow tuning threads to google a “Nuts and Bolts of Archery”. You want to click on the PDF file. Since most of us have a lot more time on our hands these days I think it is a must read. I refer to it multiple times a year. It covers everything from initial nock point install, proper form, all the way to some advanced tuning techniques. I went so far as to print it all off and threw it in a binder.

I actually have it saved in my google drive, have had for a while. Forgot I had that till you mentioned it. Life hasn't changed much for me fortunately and it's a long read. Bits and pieces at a time is the only way to take all that in. It's long but lots of information.

 

[KyleND]

I actually have it saved in my google drive, have had for a while. Forgot I had that till you mentioned it. Life hasn't changed much for me fortunately and it's a long read. Bits and pieces at a time is the only way to take all that in. It's long but lots of information.

I agree haha me saying it is must read is a stretch! More like a great resource to have.

 

[Squirrels]

I agree haha me saying it is must read is a stretch! More like a great resource to have.

I think it a great source for information in a concentrated source rather than searching for specific topics over the internet. I remember the build up to the release of that guide.... if memory serves me correct that thread on AT was almost as long as the one on "Ohiobooners". If any of you ever read that saga you know what I am talking about. A movie should be made from that thread/story.

 

[ofor]

So I started this thread and thanks to all those that responded with input. Update: I bare shafted through paper today at 6 feet. I’m getting bullet holes. Ended up with rest centered 1” from riser (spec is 3/4”-3/16”) vertically the top of the arrow just breaks the bottom of the Berger hole. My next dilemma is that I started to sight it in at the 6 feet with bare shaft and I had to move my set all the way out from the riser to get it POA and POI the same. I’m as far out as I can go with the sight.
What’s up with that??


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Are you sure you are not torquing the grip and it took that much rest movement to compensate for the torque? I was heading down the same exact path of moving my rest way out to tune out a horizontal tear. Along the way I occasionally got a bullet hole. I stepped back and studied the causes of bow torque over the weekend and realized that my stance and hand placement on the grip were both causing me to torque. I reset the release back to spec and adjusted grip and stance and now am getting a mix of bullet holes and small tears. Now that I am paying attention to the fundamentals, I pick up how the bow reacts in my hand at the shot each time I get a tear. I still have a lot of practice to do with the updated stance and grip before my bullet hole % is 100. John Dudley’s School of nock series on YouTube was a wealth of knowledge for me that got me back on the right track.

Having to go way out of spec to get good flight is cause to revisit tune, form, spine. I’m by no means an expert so take this for what it is worth but your journey sounded awfully similar to mine.

 

[Squirrels]

Are you sure you are not torquing the grip and it took that much rest movement to compensate for the torque? I was heading down the same exact path of moving my rest way out to tune out a horizontal tear. Along the way I occasionally got a bullet hole. I stepped back and studied the causes of bow torque over the weekend and realized that my stance and hand placement on the grip were both causing me to torque. I reset the release back to spec and adjusted grip and stance and now am getting a mix of bullet holes and small tears. Now that I am paying attention to the fundamentals, I pick up how the bow reacts in my hand at the shot each time I get a tear. I still have a lot of practice to do with the updated stance and grip before my bullet hole % is 100. John Dudley’s School of nock series on YouTube was a wealth of knowledge for me that got me back on the right track.

Having to go way out of spec to get good flight is cause to revisit tune, form, spine. I’m by no means an expert so take this for what it is worth but your journey sounded awfully similar to mine.

You may be right. I will say this, if I am torquing it I must be the most consistent torquer of all time. I was getting the exact same horizontal tear every time. Once I move the rest out a bit it got closer, little more adjustment and nothing but bullets holes after that. I shot another 30 arrows over the next two days. even changing point weights a little....still bullet holes every single time.