BJ, I am always flummoxed by this. You are the backup master, but in this one instance you have no backup. Do you have that much more confidence in the safeguard than all your other gear?
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Mad Rock Safeguard vs Beal Birdie
- Thread starter Airborneduckhunter
- Start date
BJ, I am always flummoxed by this. You are the backup master, but in this one instance you have no backup. Do you have that much more confidence in the safeguard than all your other gear?
I have an ascender clipped onto the rope above my Safeguard. I have a sling attached to the ascender which is attached to my 2 bridges.
I keep the ascender attached during my ascent and descent. The sling is my backup.If just being on the Safeguard and it breaks it looks to me like the rope will jam in the device and then I would have to figure out how to get down. It could just slide through in which case the autoblock may be good to have.
So when coming down you open your ascender with your thumb as you slide or what?
Yes. I just release with my thumb and move it down 2 feet at a time. I don't want to be injured in the woods, at night, 25F, so I try to make sure that doesn't happen. Rappelling down quick is fun but if it gets away from me my leg could be injured as I hit the ground too hard. I prefer to take chances in the local park where the ambulance can just pull up to my tree.
Cool, I was worried you were being internally inconsistent but am glad I was wrong on that . I go back and forth with the autoblock on the safeguard. I find it is less natural feeling for sure than using one with an ATC or figure 8.
. I go back and forth with the autoblock on the safeguard. I find it is less natural feeling for sure than using one with an ATC or figure 8.I don't know if I would use an autoblock or not since I am already set up for SRT. I think the warning from Madrock has to do with dynamic loading. If you are one sticking with your tether around the tree at your ankles, using static rope, and your stick gave way, you could fall 6 feet on static rope. The Safeguard would probably break and hopefully you would be stopped but the sudden stop may injure you severely. The autoblock would make this worse. Now I am scaring myself. Keeping slack out of your tether to minimize the fall distance would be best and I think no autoblock would still be better since it would minimize the chance of breaking the device.
Yeah I am really only talking about for backing up a proper rappel, not for the way up where slack is introduced.
KYRanger
Well-Known Member
Yes, that’s how I read it as well. I think this goes back to “interpretation” of this warning.
I’m not going to get into a debate, but the point I take from this, and even you mentioned in a previous post about the rope sliding through the device to absorb shock during a climber fall - in the belaying application. I take from this that slack passing through the Safeguard should not be restricted by a knot, device and yes an auto block.
I don’t use the Safeguard in a belaying application. What I take away from this warning is the Safeguard could fail if something is pulled into the device. In a static application, I don’t see my auto block ever being pulled, with my weight into the safeguard. Therefore I have used the auto block as a backup. Again, each has to do what they are comfortable with. That’s why I say an alternative is a complete backup tether and connection.
KYRanger
Well-Known Member
Okay, I think I see your point. But I’m not sure we are subjecting the safeguard device to the loads of a significant climber fall. Our goal is to minimize slack in the tether, but it does happen when one sticking. I don’t see myself getting into a 6 foot fall, but I have just begun to use a screamer that would help absorb a lot of shock during in such a fall.
I have seen tether at ankle level in a few videos. If the stick attachment failed completely at the that point, it would be very bad. A rock climbing fall of 6 feet with 30 feet of dynamic rope out would be far more gentle than a 6 foot fall with 6 feet of static rope, IMHO.
I think we really need to distinguish between what’s happening on the way up versus the way down. I agree with @bj139 that we see lots of tether slack in lots of one sticking videos. That’s a bad idea irrespective of the process capture device.
But, on the way down, I think backing up a rappel device is always a good idea. Any autoblock tied properly below the device should never have a chance of getting close, whether there’s a fall not, but especially when we are keeping the line tight for a proper rappel. I guess a blue water VT prusik tied above the device would be alright either way based on their warning?
But, on the way down, I think backing up a rappel device is always a good idea. Any autoblock tied properly below the device should never have a chance of getting close, whether there’s a fall not, but especially when we are keeping the line tight for a proper rappel. I guess a blue water VT prusik tied above the device would be alright either way based on their warning?
VT above. That may work. Tell us how well it does. All the arborists that I have seen make comments say that with a single line either it does not work or it mostly works. I haven't tried it enough to know. If you use one hand to release the VT first and then your second hand on the lever to release the Safeguard and your third hand to hold the tag end of the rope, it should work well. Did I miss anything?
KYRanger
Well-Known Member
True. If we are introducing more than a foot of slack it could be jarring in a fall. We want to keep the fall factor to a minimum. One reason I have added the screamer during the climb. I still prefer to take my chances getting jarred over hitting the ground from 20 plus feet. Neither is desirable.
KYRanger
Well-Known Member
That made me chuckle. You mean you don’t have a third hand?VT above. That may work. Tell us how well it does. All the arborists that I have seen make comments say that with a single line either it does not work or it mostly works. I haven't tried it enough to know. If you use one hand to release the VT first and then your second hand on the lever to release the Safeguard and your third hand to hold the tag end of the rope, it should work well. Did I miss anything?
I was envisioning how to make this work and ran out of hands.
Maybe the VT and handle could be operated with one hand. I don't know.
VT above. That may work. Tell us how well it does. All the arborists that I have seen make comments say that with a single line either it does not work or it mostly works. I haven't tried it enough to know. If you use one hand to release the VT first and then your second hand on the lever to release the Safeguard and your third hand to hold the tag end of the rope, it should work well. Did I miss anything?
Yeah, I wasn’t thinking that through entirely lol. I have tried with an ATC and think my wires were crossed in my head...
I was envisioning how to make this work and ran out of hands.
Yes, yes, I know. I was just trying to think through ways to have everything in spec.
KYRanger
Well-Known Member
No, that’s the reason I don’t suggest anything above the safeguard. Maybe at height while hunting, but not during descent.I was envisioning how to make this work and ran out of hands.
Arm breaker makes a good point about ascent vs descent. But I kinda think the auto block with a little (dare I say it) slack between the safeguard and auto block works both ways. I say a little slack to allow the Safeguard to absorb some shock in the event of a fall...but I may be wrong. I think if the Safeguard is designed to slip some under significant impact. If it will slip with dynamic rope, I suspect it will slip with static too. So maybe a little slack would aid In shock absorption. And during rappel, you need a little slack so the safeguard will operate. Heck, I’m thinking about the screamer connected to my auto block.
KYRanger
Well-Known Member
My Safeguard never slips. And it shouldn’t in our static application. I think slippage only occurs when significant fall factor loads are applied.