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Madrock Safeguard makes me uneasy

enkriss said:
I have been using the same safeguard for 4 years and have hundreds of rappels on the thing. No issue.

Not my picture.

That picture is a screenshot of a video someone posted on Facebook. His claim is the handle broke and he did a 20’ free fall. Which is BS because if the handle did break there it would lock. Worst case scenario he would be stranded till help arrived.

With that said I speculate he dropped the safeguard on a hard surface and fractured it. Went to yank the handle hard because the Oplux he was using squished down and jammed it up. Then the fracture he didn’t see let go. But he didn’t fall like he claimed.
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I don’t know what happened or how it happened, but there was something fishy about that incident for sure. I asked the guy if he contacted Madrock to report the failure and that they would likely give him a new one just to get their hands on that one to analyze in order to determine the failure mode and he just kept making excuses, saying they wouldn’t be interested and there was no need to return it, etc., etc. If that happened to me or most, Madrock would be on speed dial for that incident. Again, I don’t know what happened, but IMO I don’t think we got the real story on that one.
 
I can honestly say that this argument (and many others) makes me happy that I have always just used a a figure 8/hitch to rappel/ascend. I understand it's not as efficient as any device but it takes a lot of "extra" out of the equation. I personally feel the seconds saved are negligible compared to the added "possibilities", but to each their own. Just be safe out there guys and be confident in whatever you use.
 
@Fl Canopy Stalker I think you have this one backwards. Safeguard does not have spring, so clamps on rope with minimal pressure (holds itself in place, why it's better for arborists, rigging etc, where it needs to hold it's position while not weighted. Lifeguard has spring, the purpose of the spring being to hold the cam OPEN so it does NOT clamp on the rope. Both of these instances are when climbing (up), as the differences are designed for the way up, you want your lead climber on a lifeguard, other climber(s) on a safeguard.

I researched this directly on the madrock website (there's videos on the product pages https://madrock.com/products/lifeguard) as well as this site https://glennsaid.com/mad-rock-safeguard-vs-lifeguard/ if anyone would like to fact check me. Also keep in mind most of these descriptions are talking about two climbers-the belayer is the one on the ground, not self-belaying/repel/absceiling, whichever is the most appropriate word for letting yourself down solo.

Ultimately, though, recurrence of conversations like this and the possibility of a broken handle combined with re-evaluating why in the world I'm using it (because it was cool/the new big thing)... I've gone back to using an ATC and it's smoother/better/safer. But that wasn't the point of the question asked...
 
thedutchtouch said:
@Fl Canopy Stalker I think you have this one backwards. Safeguard does not have spring, so clamps on rope with minimal pressure (holds itself in place, why it's better for arborists, rigging etc, where it needs to hold it's position while not weighted. Lifeguard has spring, the purpose of the spring being to hold the cam OPEN so it does NOT clamp on the rope. Both of these instances are when climbing (up), as the differences are designed for the way up, you want your lead climber on a lifeguard, other climber(s) on a safeguard.

I researched this directly on the madrock website (there's videos on the product pages https://madrock.com/products/lifeguard) as well as this site https://glennsaid.com/mad-rock-safeguard-vs-lifeguard/ if anyone would like to fact check me. Also keep in mind most of these descriptions are talking about two climbers-the belayer is the one on the ground, not self-belaying/repel/absceiling, whichever is the most appropriate word for letting yourself down solo.

Ultimately, though, recurrence of conversations like this and the possibility of a broken handle combined with re-evaluating why in the world I'm using it (because it was cool/the new big thing)... I've gone back to using an ATC and it's smoother/better/safer. But that wasn't the point of the question asked...
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I read the website you got that from per batium however that is when you weight it with a hand on the brake line side of the rope (minimum force). Once the handle is pulled back (and broken off while the cam is disengaged [according to the Facebook post]) and the cam is disengaged it is not designed to automatically lock up aka the cam does not always re engage). Y’all can disagree and maybe in your experiences it has engaged the cam immediately after release but again the warning paperwork from Madrock says It does not automatically lock up. Releasing the handle and the cam closing is automatically locking up. So if I am wrong then so is the manufacturer who makes the product and writes their warnings. Just like guys argue the autoblock on the brake side of the line, this is another example where people won’t agree but it doesn’t change the manufacturer’s warnings.
 
Fl Canopy Stalker said:
I read the website you got that from per batium however that is when you weight it with a hand on the brake line side of the rope (minimum force). Once the handle is pulled back (and broken off while the cam is disengaged [according to the Facebook post]) and the cam is disengaged it is not designed to automatically lock up aka the cam does not always re engage). Y’all can disagree and maybe in your experiences it has engaged the cam immediately after release but again the warning paperwork from Madrock says It does not automatically lock up. Releasing the handle and the cam closing is automatically locking up. So if I am wrong then so is the manufacturer who makes the product and writes their warnings. Just like guys argue the autoblock on the brake side of the line, this is another example where people won’t agree but it doesn’t change the manufacturer’s warnings.
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One must also remember that a lot of warnings are written for legal liability purposes. I’ve seen several saddle companies that tested their saddles, platforms, stands etc. well above 300lbs with no failures, but yet, when you buy the product you see warnings saying it’s only good for 300lbs. We all know that there’s a lot of big boys out there with more than a few tipping the scales over 300lbs with all their gear on and climbing on sticks that the manufacture has warned that are only good for 300lbs. Lots of warning are produced just to reduce potential legal liability. Look at the warning sheets that come with any saddle. It’s ridiculous. It’s just the world we live in. I”m not saying one should just ignore manufacturers warning Willy Nilly, but in some cases, actual experience has proven some of these warnings to be overstated. When I release the handle on my MadRock, it locks up and stops…every single time. That’s just my actual experience.
 
For reference guys, here are descenders/belay devices sold by Wesspur that are approved by OSHA for arborist use.

Rig

www.wesspur.com www.wesspur.com

I don’t believe the safeguard meets that criteria but perhaps I am wrong. Most of, if not all, the devices sold be Wesspur are automatic braking (locking cam) devices which means you can release the handle and it will automatically brake you. Also for you guys that don’t like made in China; the safeguard is made in Taiwan so a handle malfunctioning or breaking during use is probably not unheard of.
 
Fl Canopy Stalker said:
For reference guys, here are descenders/belay devices sold by Wesspur that are approved by OSHA for arborist use.

Rig

www.wesspur.com www.wesspur.com

I don’t believe the safeguard meets that criteria but perhaps I am wrong. Most of, if not all, the devices sold be Wesspur are automatic braking (locking cam) devices which means you can release the handle and it will automatically brake you. Also for you guys that don’t like made in China; the safeguard is made in Taiwan so a handle malfunctioning or breaking during use is probably not unheard of.
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Is there any actual saddle being used for hunting approved by OSHA for arborist use? I’m just saying if you are going to apply the OSHA/arborist test, you kind of have to apply it to all the gear used to climb, sit and decend from the tree right?
 
2Sloe said:
One must also remember that a lot of warnings are written for legal liability purposes. I’ve seen several saddle companies that tested their saddles, platforms, stands etc. well above 300lbs with no failures, but yet, when you buy the product you see warnings saying it’s only good for 300lbs. We all know that there’s a lot of big boys out there with more than a few tipping the scales over 300lbs with all their gear on and climbing on sticks that the manufacture has warned that are only good for 300lbs. Lots of warning are produced just to reduce potential legal liability. Look at the warning sheets that come with any saddle. It’s ridiculous. It’s just the world we live in. I”m not saying one should just ignore manufacturers warning Willy Nilly, but in some cases, actual experience has proven some of these warnings to be overstated. When I release the handle on my MadRock, it locks up and stops…every single time. That’s just my actual experience.
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Most warnings are written not because something could happen, but because something has already happened within the industry. And it’s the best way to avoid those events from happening again. Yes they are a cover your butt statement but they also do not protect from the product failure or from a product being promoted to be used other than its intended use. They aren’t just there to protect the manufacturer, they are also there to protect you. When tide says don’t eat the tide pod or you could die, it isn’t to stop them from being sued, it’s there so people know the tide pod isn’t safe to eat.
Also when you say you’ve seen these saddles tested well above the 300 lbs did you see the drops? Did you see the report verifying the weight used? Did the saddle pass each test including the lineman’s loop drops at a 2:1 ratio with slack of 24” (ie a 48” straight fall)? A continuous loop of seatbelt webbing surviving a 350 lbs drop isn’t surprising but how far did the friction hitch slide? Did it pass the waist belt drop or lineman’s loop drop at the same weight as the max force arrest? There are so many factors that would not actually constitute a pass on the drops and keep in mind that isn’t even the saddles intended use. So they aren’t rated to 350 or 400 lbs because they might not meet that criteria, or because most 350 lbs people aren’t physically fit to be climbing trees to begin with. For what it’s worth XOP tested and passed the 350 lbs tests and they rated theirs to 350 lbs.
 
2Sloe said:
Is there any actual saddle being used for hunting approved by OSHA for arborist use? I’m just saying if you are going to apply the OSHA/arborist test, you kind of have to apply it to all the gear used to climb, sit and decend from the tree right?
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See aerohunter original saddle or aerohunter evo….
 
Fl Canopy Stalker said:
See aerohunter original saddle or aerohunter evo….
Click to expand...
IMO, lawyers definitely get a say. The odds of multiple sticks made by multiple manufactures all testing out to the exact same weight limitation is infinitesimal, despite the one example that you offered and even that one, what are the odds that XOP tested to exactly 350lbs? IMO offering two saddles that I don’t think are even made today as meeting the OSHA/Arborist test for the majority of saddles being sold and used today is disingenuous. Good conversation, you get the last word.
 
Fl Canopy Stalker said:
Madrock safeguard doesn’t have the spring assisted panic feature, the lifeguard does
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You're not often wrong @Fl Canopy Stalker but I have to say you are on this one. I have owned and used an original GriGri (not plus, no panic feature), a Lifeguard and a couple of Safeguards. These devices (except the Safeguard) are designed for and intended to be used as belay devices, where the belay climber on the ground is free to feed rope through them as the lead climber ascends. The spring on the GriGri and Lifeguard actually holds the cam open to allow free feeding of the rope to the climber. If the lead climber falls, the friction of the rope pulling through it, in conjunction with the grip of the belayer's break hand, closes the cam and locks it, pinching and binding the rope in the device. Pulling on the handle manually releases the cam and allows the rope to pass through so the lead climber can be safely lowered. If the cam handle is broken, the cam stays cammed and and there's no way to release it. I know from first hand experience.

First Mechanical Device Failure Tonight (Safeguard)

Tonight I dragged the camper to the area I'm hunting this weekend and arrived right at 6:00. Rushed out to spend an hour in an observation sit. I was setup on the edge of a large clear cut and sat right to last light. When I went to rappel down the lever of my Safeguard came right off in my...
saddlehunter.com

The point however is that the spring is not an assisted panic feature, it is actually the opposite. It holds the cam open so line can be feed freely when required. In order to lock up a GriGri, Lifeguard under normal circumstances the return spring must also be overcome by the rope friction. The GriGri + does have a panic feature that if you for some reason loose your grip with your free hand and continue to pull the handle hoping to stop in your panic, it will actually pull to a second position and lock the device.

The Safeguard is a deviant of the Lifeguard intended to be used for work positioning. It does not have the return spring and therefore has nothing holding the cam open. This means the cam actually closes with minimal rope tension. It makes it almost worthless as belay device (there's no good way to feed rope free through it) but it makes it a bit safer as a work positioning device. As soon as the rope is tensioned it cams over, grabs and holds. Autolocking . . . probably not but its as close as it gets as long as you are tending the tag end with you break hand and not pulling the lever. The trick here is to remember that the panic stop is to let go of the lever, not pull it harder.

I tried an experiment with the three devices I had while standing on the ground. I attached myself to a tree with a rope running through the device as intended. I then, without tending the tag end with my brake hand or pulling on the lever, backed slowly away from the tree. This was to simulate leaning back on an untensioned rope while not paying attention to the tag end as if you were standing on your platform and then just leaned back into the device. Using the Lifeguard (which has the stronger return spring) I was able to back up slowly without the device locking as far as I wanted. Needless to say I ended up selling this device to a rock climbing friend for use in its intended purpose, as a bottom climber belay. The original GriGri had a lighter spring but I was still able to very slowly move away from the tree for a foot or so before it locked up. The spring is strong enough to allow rope to feed through it but weak enough that it only takes a small amount of tension to start to cam it over and lock it. The Safeguad, since it doesn't have this spring holding the cam open, has no inherent resistance to the rope tension and it locked up immediately every time.

Here is a video done before the SafeGuard was officially released showing a Lifeguard vs the Lifeguard without a spring (aka Safeguard).

 
2Sloe said:
IMO, lawyers definitely get a say. The odds of multiple sticks made by multiple manufactures all testing out to the exact same weight limitation is infinitesimal, despite the one example that you offered and even that one, what are the odds that XOP tested to exactly 350lbs? IMO offering two saddles that I don’t think are even made today as meeting the OSHA/Arborist test for the majority of saddles being sold and used today is disingenuous. Good conversation, you get the last word.
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Yes sir great conversation. The sticks and platforms get a slow applied static pull of don’t quote me but I believe twice the amount of weight that they are rated for. So you are correct, XOP would have placed at least 700 lbs on the sticks to get the 350 rating. Saddles are currently done a little differently and moving forward they will be pulled at an angle to a weight of their proposed weight rating and held for 5 minutes using a weighted counter pulley system. Then the weight will be lifted and drop a predetermined distance. In my mind that is less strenuous that doing a straight drop and then allowing the weight to remain suspended for a couple minutes afterwards.
I believe some saddles today would meet the requirements of ANSI for an arborist approved work positioning harness however many would not. I say I believe because I haven’t reviewed the standard recently. Lanyard attachment rings at the hip (lineman’s loops) might require a metal attachment point and if so, then no current saddles except perhaps the Revo would meet that. My hope is that the saddle standards come close to mirroring the arbor culture work positioning regs as far as strength goes.

I also want to be clear I am not saying anyone is off base here. People have different methods and gear that works for them. We all have different preferences and being comfortable and confident in your climbing or descending method is important. I just don’t want guys thinking that a fall on a Madrock couldn’t happen if the handle is released. The device isn’t a true hands free device so opposing pressure on the brake side of the rope is as if not more important that the handle pressure. Pulling the handle, starts disengaging the friction cam. The cam is not an automatic braking cam so it returning to closed position is not guaranteed. I apologize for the long winded responses. More than anything, I just want guys to be safe. Never do I want to open this page and have yo donate to a go fund me because one of you guys (who I’ve come to really appreciate and respect) got injured or killed in a hunting accident. I argue adamantly on here simply because I want people to realize all scenarios and potential outcomes, not only the ones they’ve experienced.
 
boyne bowhunter said:
You're not often wrong @Fl Canopy Stalker but I have to say you are on this one. I have owned and used an original GriGri (not plus, no panic feature), a Lifeguard and a couple of Safeguards. These devices (except the Safeguard) are designed for and intended to be used as belay devices, where the belay climber on the ground is free to feed rope through them as the lead climber ascends. The spring on the GriGri and Lifeguard actually holds the cam open to allow free feeding of the rope to the climber. If the lead climber falls, the friction of the rope pulling through it, in conjunction with the grip of the belayer's break hand, closes the cam and locks it, pinching and binding the rope in the device. Pulling on the handle manually releases the cam and allows the rope to pass through so the lead climber can be safely lowered. If the cam handle is broken, the cam stays cammed and and there's no way to release it. I know from first hand experience.

First Mechanical Device Failure Tonight (Safeguard)

Tonight I dragged the camper to the area I'm hunting this weekend and arrived right at 6:00. Rushed out to spend an hour in an observation sit. I was setup on the edge of a large clear cut and sat right to last light. When I went to rappel down the lever of my Safeguard came right off in my...
saddlehunter.com

The point however is that the spring is not an assisted panic feature, it is actually the opposite. It holds the cam open so line can be feed freely when required. In order to lock up a GriGri, Lifeguard under normal circumstances the return spring must also be overcome by the rope friction. The GriGri + does have a panic feature that if you for some reason loose your grip with your free hand and continue to pull the handle hoping to stop in your panic, it will actually pull to a second position and lock the device.

The Safeguard is a deviant of the Lifeguard intended to be used for work positioning. It does not have the return spring and therefore has nothing holding the cam open. This means the cam actually closes with minimal rope tension. It makes it almost worthless as belay device (there's no good way to feed rope free through it) but it makes it a bit safer as a work positioning device. As soon as the rope is tensioned it cams over, grabs and holds. Autolocking . . . probably not but its as close as it gets as long as you are tending the tag end with you break hand and not pulling the lever. The trick here is to remember that the panic stop is to let go of the lever, not pull it harder.

I tried an experiment with the three devices I had while standing on the ground. I attached myself to a tree with a rope running through the device as intended. I then, without tending the tag end with my brake hand or pulling on the lever, backed slowly away from the tree. This was to simulate leaning back on an untensioned rope while not paying attention to the tag end as if you were standing on your platform and then just leaned back into the device. Using the Lifeguard (which has the stronger return spring) I was able to back up slowly without the device locking as far as I wanted. Needless to say I ended up selling this device to a rock climbing friend for use in its intended purpose, as a bottom climber belay. The original GriGri had a lighter spring but I was still able to very slowly move away from the tree for a foot or so before it locked up. The spring is strong enough to allow rope to feed through it but weak enough that it only takes a small amount of tension to start to cam it over and lock it. The Safeguad, since it doesn't have this spring holding the cam open, has no inherent resistance to the rope tension and it locked up immediately every time.

Here is a video done before the SafeGuard was officially released showing a Lifeguard vs the Lifeguard without a spring (aka Safeguard).

Click to expand...
Ok so if I have the spring function as backwards and the spring helps keep the cam open as opposed to closed, the safeguard cam itself is not an automatic braking cam like say the Petzl RIG. It’s a mechanical assist but return to the lock position is t not guaranteed. In the video, With no load the lifeguard slides and the safeguard doesn’t (although I’ve seen them slide on oplux when they are unweighted) that still doesn’t mean that the handle will automatically return to the locked position if you release it while your hand wasn’t on the brake line while rappelling. I say that because the cam isn’t an automatic locking cam. If it were they wouldn’t put it wasn’t in the warning. They would simply say something like even though this device is an auto braking device, applying pressure on the brake line side of the device is still required….. or something along those lines.

Devices that automatically lock when the handle is released are considered true hands free devices and don’t require a secondary block or tie off.
I gladly admit that I could be backwards on the spring operation for panic assist but I still don’t see anywhere that lists the safeguard as automatically locking the cam when the handle is released
 
Fl Canopy Stalker said:
Ok so if I have the spring function as backwards and the spring helps keep the cam open as opposed to closed, the safeguard cam itself is not an automatic braking cam like say the Petzl RIG. It’s a mechanical assist but return to the lock position is t not guaranteed. In the video, With no load the lifeguard slides and the safeguard doesn’t (although I’ve seen them slide on oplux when they are unweighted) that still doesn’t mean that the handle will automatically return to the locked position if you release it while your hand wasn’t on the brake line while rappelling. I say that because the cam isn’t an automatic locking cam. If it were they wouldn’t put it wasn’t in the warning. They would simply say something like even though this device is an auto braking device, applying pressure on the brake line side of the device is still required….. or something along those lines.

Devices that automatically lock when the handle is released are considered true hands free devices and don’t require a secondary block or tie off.
I gladly admit that I could be backwards on the spring operation for panic assist but I still don’t see anywhere that lists the safeguard as automatically locking the cam when the handle is released
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I would never propose that the Safeguard is auto locking, even though my tests show it cams and locks under the lightest tension. I must admit that I don't hang on it any more when hunting, its just my rappel device that I transition to when its time to get down. That's not because I don't feel safe on it, its more that I don't hang on my rappel setup anymore. I also will admit that I am completely comfortable hanging on it without a secondary tie off or block while I remove my platform and stick from the tree. Once its cammed and locked, its not uncamming without pulling the lever. That's something I never do without my break hand fully engaged.
 
boyne bowhunter said:
I would never propose that the Safeguard is auto locking, even though my tests show it cams and locks under the lightest tension. I must admit that I don't hang on it any more when hunting, its just my rappel device that I transition to when its time to get down. That's not because I don't feel safe on it, its more that I don't hang on my rappel setup anymore. I also will admit that I am completely comfortable hanging on it without a secondary tie off or block while I remove my platform and stick from the tree. Once its cammed and locked, its not uncamming without pulling the lever. That's something I never do without my break hand fully engaged.
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I don’t stay on my device at height either simply because I like my tether lower and easier to manipulate if I need to get around the tree. With that said I am also comfortable using it without a back up as well. Same with my Gri gri. My understanding is assisted mechanical braking (like all three devices) means that counter pressure on the brake line side helps the cam rotate back into lock. If you remove that tension with the handle compressed, there is nothing to counter tension the rotating cam back into lock. The guy on Facebook claimed it broke off on him while he was rappelling. I assumed that meant the handle had been pulled prior to breaking and the cam was released. So if he panicked or got his hand burnt, and released it before he broke the handle that he could still fall. As for the rotating cam, without counter force it might do return to lock (hence I said theoretically it should) but it’s not guaranteed to return the cam to lock. I truly appreciate the video and literature explaining the spring assist function. I openly admit I had that completely backwards. I was under the impression the spring assisted the return not assisted with the release. I appreciate everyone’s patience and input. I enjoy learning new things.
 
jsh909 said:
I can honestly say that this argument (and many others) makes me happy that I have always just used a a figure 8/hitch to rappel/ascend. I understand it's not as efficient as any device but it takes a lot of "extra" out of the equation. I personally feel the seconds saved are negligible compared to the added "possibilities", but to each their own. Just be safe out there guys and be confident in whatever you use.
Click to expand...
which figure 8 are you using. I’m in the market for one and I hear everyone buys the $9 Amazon 35KN. I
 
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