Madrock safeguard safety?

[Dmathews87]

this recently came up with the madrock...madrock specifically states do not place a hitch or braking device above or below it as it can cause it to malfunction in the event of a fall. People do it and it works but you need to be aware of that safety warning and make an appropriate decision.

 

[Apex7]

Why isn’t the Petzl Gri Gri plus used more in the saddle hunter community?


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I find it smoother than my Madrock Safeguard and if for some reason you pull the handle all the way open it will stop you. It's like a panic mod. It's a little bigger then the Madrock and cost a little more but to me it's worth it.

 

[Apex7]

this recently came up with the madrock...madrock specifically states do not place a hitch or braking device above or below it as it can cause it to malfunction in the event of a fall. People do it and it works but you need to be aware of that safety warning and make an appropriate decision.

It's also not to be used hands free. So if your rappelling you shouldn't take you hand off of you brake hand. So it woud be unsafe to take off a platform or sticks without it being backed up.

 

[Dmathews87]

It's also not to be used hands free. So if your rappelling you shouldn't take you hand off of you brake hand. So it woud be unsafe to take off a platform or sticks without it being backed up.

Another reason im not using the madrock....8 or ATC for me. As i mentioned, people are backing up the madrock and it works but they need to be aware that warning exists and decide for themselves if thats still something they want to do.

 

[thedutchtouch]

Are autoblock, hollowblock, and the prusik mentioned in the video all the same thing? Noob here. Sorry if its a dumb question.

I believe @GravityTension answered this mostly already, but just in case you're still confused, my understanding is:
you tie a prusik with your hollowblock to use it as an autoblock.
Prusik-type of knot
Autoblock- specific use of a (prusik loop/hollowblock tied with prusik knot) as rapell safety device
Hollowblock- brand name of sterling product, which I use and recommend.

 

[TNSTAAFL]

It's also not to be used hands free. So if your rappelling you shouldn't take you hand off of you brake hand. So it woud be unsafe to take off a platform or sticks without it being backed up.

This is the dilemma I am mulling over. How do you back it up or tie off in order to remove a stick or platform, if you can't/shouldn't put a knot or hitch above or below?

This puzzle is making me think I am better off with my figure 9 with an auto block below.

1-stick rappel is such an enticing yet complicated maze of gear/functionality/safety tradeoffs.

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[thedutchtouch]

Another reason im not using the madrock....8 or ATC for me. As i mentioned, people are backing up the madrock and it works but they need to be aware that warning exists and decide for themselves if thats still something they want to do.

Edited to add: read further down, this is not a good idea, I was only considering static situations and falls are dynamic. My understanding has increased so I don't think I'll do this any more, sorry for recommending something that could be unsafe.




I have been backing mine up with an autoblock below. This is against manufacturer reccomendations, but I accept that. My autoblock (using sterling hollowblock) is attached to my right lineman loop and whether I'm using my madrock or my ATC, it can't get bound up, it catches first with a foot of space in between. If it's too close, run a longer bridge.

Anyhow, that's my safe version of violating manufacturer specs so I could remove sticks on the way down. If you copy me and you get hurt or die it'll be your fault, your family won't be able to sue madrock. Now that I started one sticking I don't need to stop on the way down.

 

[elk yinzer]

This is the dilemma I am mulling over. How do you back it up or tie off in order to remove a stick or platform, if you can't/shouldn't put a knot or hitch above or below?

This puzzle is making me think I am better off with my figure 9 with an auto block below.

1-stick rappel is such an enticing yet complicated maze of gear/functionality/safety tradeoffs.

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You can throw a quick half hitch right below the device. That will off course keep you from hitting the ground but it may jam the device. Still it's the best/most comfortable hands free option I've tried. At least for a bigger guy on a small rope.

 

[TNSTAAFL]

You can throw a quick half hitch right below the device. That will off course keep you from hitting the ground but it may jam the device. Still it's the best/most comfortable hands free option I've tried. At least for a bigger guy on a small rope.

Ya, I thought of similar quick tie offs below, which are all easy to do, but they also seem to violate the rule of no knots or hitches below.

I guess in the end there may be no way around this conundrum, which is probably why so many of the more experienced climbers (non hunting) seem to discourage their use.



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[elk yinzer]

Ya, I thought of similar quick tie offs below, which are all easy to do, but they also seem to violate the rule of no knots or hitches below.

I guess in the end there may be no way around this conundrum, which is probably why so many of the more experienced climbers (non hunting) seem to discourage their use.



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There is no perfect system. I've only been stuck in a pickle once and it was when a prussic autoblock completely bound up on me. I was screwing around in my yard and didn't have my full kit but I was able to get down with a munter although it was a bit sketchy. I was never able to replicate exactly why it bit so hard, I think I may have been one wrap short of what I usually would do.

To be brutally honest I think a lot of the sentiment against belay devices in this application is a purity thing, not so much function or safety related. Like the fly fisher looking down on the bait chucker. If it's super duper complex you may even be able to name something after yourself!! The belay device is an EZ button. There's a thought too that maybe there shouldn't be a EZ button for something dangerous that should require more learning than amazon buy now button and a couple youtube vids. That part I can kinda agree with but it doesn't negate the effectiveness of the device itself. Experiment with a bunch of stuff and use what you feel works best for you.

 

[Fl Canopy Stalker]

Yo

This is the dilemma I am mulling over. How do you back it up or tie off in order to remove a stick or platform, if you can't/shouldn't put a knot or hitch above or below?

This puzzle is making me think I am better off with my figure 9 with an auto block below.

1-stick rappel is such an enticing yet complicated maze of gear/functionality/safety tradeoffs.

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

You can run a friction hitch several inches above the belay device, you just can’t do it on the brake line side. The dynamic event will cause the rope to stretch downward toward your body weight. The hitch above on your lead line will help absorb shock so it won’t interfere with the Madrock, the autoblock below won’t allow the rope to slide and stretch (absorb force) and it won’t catch you in an upright manner either. Autoblocks are a no no with a belay device. I saw nothing that said a friction hitch above is not ok

 

[Apex7]

This is the dilemma I am mulling over. How do you back it up or tie off in order to remove a stick or platform, if you can't/shouldn't put a knot or hitch above or below?

This puzzle is making me think I am better off with my figure 9 with an auto block below.

1-stick rappel is such an enticing yet complicated maze of gear/functionality/safety tradeoffs.

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

I for one have never read that you couldn't have an hollow block below the Madrock or GRIGRI . I think that the issue was that if you fall the hollow block could get caught in the Madrock. With a hollow block below it does the something as your hand would. The hollow block is hooked to my lineman loop with a carabiner .

 

[Fl Canopy Stalker]

The GriGri will passively let out line if slack is introduced. So if you unload it (stand up on your platform or introduce slack while one-sticking) it can let rope through, which if you quickly sit down will give you a scare. It SHOULD catch you if you're using in spec rope, but even a short fall on a static rope can be dangerous.

For one-sticking, the Madrock won't passively let out any rope, so it's easier to manage. You can ascend and descend on the same mechanism, which is probably safer.

He said the gri gri plus which has the spring tensioner and anti panic feature. The safeguard feeds back when unweighted as well. That’s what makes a belay device able to belay (feed or pull slack rope while not tensioned. You should not use an autoblock on the brake side of your line when using a belay device.

 

[Fl Canopy Stalker]

I for one have never read that you couldn't have an hollow block below the Madrock or GRIGRI . I think that the issue was that if you fall the hollow block could get caught in the Madrock. With a hollow block below it does the something as your hand would. The hollow block is hooked to my lineman loop with a carabiner .

 

[Fl Canopy Stalker]

I for one have never read that you couldn't have an hollow block below the Madrock or GRIGRI . I think that the issue was that if you fall the hollow block could get caught in the Madrock. With a hollow block below it does the something as your hand would. The hollow block is hooked to my lineman loop with a carabiner .

The issue is the rope will not stretch and pull through to help absorb the shock

 

[Apex7]

The issue is the rope will not stretch and pull through to help absorb the shock

Your talking about a fall correct ? There shouldn't be any slack in the rope when rappelling. I don't get what scenario you are trying to explain. If you have time look up Hollow block review on the web .

 

[Fl Canopy Stalker]

Your talking about a fall correct ? There shouldn't be any slack in the rope when rappelling. I don't get what scenario you are trying to explain. If you have time look up Hollow block review on the web .

That’s any dynamic loading event. If you are only rappelling with a Madrock and you know that you’ve set your girth hitch tightly to the tree with no small branches impeding it’s cinch, or no loose bark that could rub off then you most likely will never suffer a dynamic event but keep in mind many guys are new and thinking of SRT with these or one sticking, or stay on the rope as their tether, they need to understand the manufacturer says do not do it and there is a reason. Belay devices need the rope to be able to stretch and run. They are used with dynamic ropes that help absorb the force, we use static ropes with limited force absorption. I am making the distinction that you shouldn’t use one because it says so. A simple long friction hitch on the lead side of the line could do the same thing as the autoblock without interfering with its dynamic handling.

 

[thedutchtouch]

Hm. It appears that what I was doing was not as safe as I thought it might have been. I didn't consider a dynamic event, but if the rope were to slip, while unlikely, it would create this possibility. I think I'll keep using the ATC even though I let myself become a madrock fanboy after being an ATC ",you don't need one" prior.

 

[Dmathews87]

Hm. It appears that what I was doing was not as safe as I thought it might have been. I didn't consider a dynamic event, but if the rope were to slip, while unlikely, it would create this possibility. I think I'll keep using the ATC even though I let myself become a madrock fanboy after being an ATC ",you don't need one" prior.

Ive started using an ATC with a schwabish above and autoblock below so i can sill rappel as needed during a climb if this helps

 

[Fl Canopy Stalker]

Hm. It appears that what I was doing was not as safe as I thought it might have been. I didn't consider a dynamic event, but if the rope were to slip, while unlikely, it would create this possibility. I think I'll keep using the ATC even though I let myself become a madrock fanboy after being an ATC ",you don't need one" prior.

I love the gri gri plus and I keep a long schwabisch hitch tied above it. It allows a great safety back up as well as a positioning alternative if I ever chose to stay on my climbing line for a tether.