My next step, arrows

[JSEXTON23]

Allegheny Tom, thanks for posting that chart. I want to highlight some things in the fine print.
Whether you prefer a light or a heavy arrow, there is some great stuff in Ashby’s work. Archers tend to debate Ashby‘s recommendation of heavy arrows and high FOC. But many ignore the other factors that he has identified. Factor 1 is structural integrity of the entire arrow and tip system. Multiple factors are about broadhead design, and there’s two or three factors related to shaft design.

12 Arrow Penetration Factors — Ashby Bowhunting Foundation

www.ashbybowhunting.org

1000%! Total system integrity and perfect arrow flight are 2 of the major factors.

I think where people get lost is the bone breaking threshold.

Here’s an anecdote, from my experience last year and why I am insistent on increasing my arrow mass this year. Before I begin, I am increasing arrow mass to see if I can find out if it helps me or not. I might find this system doesn’t work for me and I’ll gladly admit just that. This is a test of the principles.

Last season I hunted with a 42#@28” Navajo Apache longbow. I draw right at 28-1/8. So let’s call it 42#. I was shooting a 550 grain Gold Tip Trad 500 with a 200 grain Cutthroat. The first deer I killed last season was a very large mature doe. I would wager she was a 5-1/2 year old deer. I shot her at 12 yards, dead broadside, from around 12-14 feet in elevation. I passed through both scapulas, but my arrow buried to the fletch. She ran into a very tall, dense crp field and died within 40 yards. Double lung, quick clean harvest.

I was not, however, satisfied with the arrow performance. I lost that arrow and broadhead in that crp field. It’s still there and it drives me nuts. Sure, I hit that deer 1” back and my arrow zips through ribs. What if I hit 1-2” lower and forward?

So, maybe my 550 grain setup wasn’t enough. Maybe that’s the best my bow will do. Or maybe I can build a better arrow and go through with the arrow sticking in the ground.

Do I think 650 grains kills that deer any more dead. Not likely. Do I think 550 was inadequate? Not entirely. I think I could have better, and I have some doubts. Would that 550 grain arrow have made it through the humerus and into the vitals? I don’t know. Will the 650? I don’t know, but I’m going to try.

 

[Petrichor]

1000%! Total system integrity and perfect arrow flight are 2 of the major factors.

I think where people get lost is the bone breaking threshold.

Here’s an anecdote, from my experience last year and why I am insistent on increasing my arrow mass this year. Before I begin, I am increasing arrow mass to see if I can find out if it helps me or not. I might find this system doesn’t work for me and I’ll gladly admit just that. This is a test of the principles.

Last season I hunted with a 42#@28” Navajo Apache longbow. I draw right at 28-1/8. So let’s call it 42#. I was shooting a 550 grain Gold Tip Trad 500 with a 200 grain Cutthroat. The first deer I killed last season was a very large mature doe. I would wager she was a 5-1/2 year old deer. I shot her at 12 yards, dead broadside, from around 12-14 feet in elevation. I passed through both scapulas, but my arrow buried to the fletch. She ran into a very tall, dense crp field and died within 40 yards. Double lung, quick clean harvest.

I was not, however, satisfied with the arrow performance. I lost that arrow and broadhead in that crp field. It’s still there and it drives me nuts. Sure, I hit that deer 1” back and my arrow zips through ribs. What if I hit 1-2” lower and forward?

So, maybe my 550 grain setup wasn’t enough. Maybe that’s the best my bow will do. Or maybe I can build a better arrow and go through with the arrow sticking in the ground.

Do I think 650 grains kills that deer any more dead. Not likely. Do I think 550 was inadequate? Not entirely. I think I could have better, and in have some doubts. Would that 550 grain arrow made it through the humerus and into the vitals? I don’t know. Will the 650? I don’t know, but I’m going to try.

Wow. Thanks for sharing that. I think whatever you try I hope it gives you the results you seek. At the end of the day I would just encourage you with this: there are thousands of variables to this thing we call life/hunting/death and your arrow was only one of them in this case. Anything could happen and vary deer to deer. I don’t say that to discourage you from making any changes, but rather from a different point of view. I have photographed well over a hundred and fifty autopsies. I say that to say my biggest take away from all of them is that life is so fragile and also so hardy. Some I was left with impression “how could that hurt let alone kill a human?” And others I was left scratching my head “how did he/she survive so long?” Sorry that was morbid……

 

[BTaylor]

This is the entry. 18 yard shot and the deer was almost same level.


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[BTaylor]

With that point of entry virtually no one would think spine shot but that is exactly what happened. Deer’s front dropped to load which drops the chest between the front legs. Perfect example of when your eyes can fool you on a shot. I saw that arrow hit and was just a tad surprised when she hit the ground like she was shot with a big rifle.


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[Petrichor]

Wow. Yeah exactly. Anything can happen.

 

[BTaylor]

Wow. Yeah exactly. Anything can happen.

A couple of years before, I hit a buck about 2" back and 2" higher than the entry on that doe. 22 yard shot from a ground blind and broadside. Basically, 12 ring on every 3d target. 3 days later he showed back up on the trail cam on the food plot where I shot him. I played through every scenario I could think of and decided he had to have dropped his front end and the arrow went through the back straps even though the entry was "perfect". Killing that doe that way just confirmed those thoughts. Every person that saw the trail cam pic of that buck asked the same question, how is he not dead? Like someone mentioned earlier in this thread, they are virtually never motionless at the shot. Also explains why a lot of people think they hit "no man's land" thinking they shot below the spine but above lungs. They just shot through the straps.

 

[Red Beard]

@BTaylor thank you for posting those pictures and relaying the account of that buck. Very good food for thought.

 

[JSEXTON23]

With that point of entry virtually no one would think spine shot but that is exactly what happened. Deer’s front dropped to load which drops the chest between the front legs. Perfect example of when your eyes can fool you on a shot. I saw that arrow hit and was just a tad surprised when she hit the ground like she was shot with a big rifle.


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Out of curiosity, what was the arrow setup? My response will be informed by your response

 

[Petrichor]

Out of curiosity, what was the arrow setup? My response will be informed by your response

I know what’s about to happen…….

 

[JSEXTON23]

I know what’s about to happen…….

I don’t think you do. I think there’s something to be learned here about deer and arrow movement

 

[BTaylor]

@BTaylor thank you for posting those pictures and relaying the account of that buck. Very good food for thought.

Just thought it seemed to fit with the discussion. I am not a light arrow proponent and not a super heavy arrow proponent but definitely fall on the heavy side of center. At the same time I believe tune and accuracy are just as important as the projectile. We also need to have a really clear understanding of the anatomy of the critters we hunt and understand that what our eyes see, even when they see it correctly, may not yield the results we expect. The best we can do as bowhunters is hunt with proper equipment that is tuned and place our arrow as accurately as we can to a spot. Nothing after that is within our control other than giving maximum effort to the recovery any hit game and learn from the results of each shot.

 

[BTaylor]

Out of curiosity, what was the arrow setup? My response will be informed by your response

500 grain easton axis with a spitfire max out front. 268fps. 68# bow.

 

[Red Beard]

Just thought it seemed to fit with the discussion. I am not a light arrow proponent and not a super heavy arrow proponent but definitely fall on the heavy side of center. At the same time I believe tune and accuracy are just as important as the projectile. We also need to have a really clear understanding of the anatomy of the critters we hunt and understand that what our eyes see, even when they see it correctly, may not yield the results we expect. The best we can do as bowhunters is hunt with proper equipment that is tuned and place our arrow as accurately as we can to a spot. Nothing after that is within our control other than giving maximum effort to the recovery any hit game and learn from the results of each shot.

Right on. I'm unashamedly a heavy arrow guy. I like your post though because it's interesting to see what the internal parts are doing as they drop to load their muscles.

 

[JSEXTON23]

500 grain easton axis with a spitfire max out front. 268fps. 68# bow.

Thank you. This was my assumption but I wanted the info before putting my foot in my mouth. With that said, foot meet mouth.

One factor on top of the deer dropping and rolling is the potential for deflection. I think mechanicals increase the odds of deflection. That deflection in this case saved you a , likely short, tracking job. That’s great. A cut in contact might have just went through and you end up blood trailing. Score one for the flapper.

My point was to add to @BTaylor post. The broadhead deflection could have been a major contribution to the disconnect between what the eyes saw and reality

 

[BTaylor]

Right on. I'm unashamedly a heavy arrow guy. I like your post though because it's interesting to see what the internal parts are doing as they drop to load their muscles.

They can go straight matrix at times.

 

[BTaylor]

Thank you. This was my assumption but I wanted the info before putting my foot in my mouth. With that said, foot meet mouth.

One factor on top of the deer dropping and rolling is the potential for deflection. I think mechanicals increase the odds of deflection. That deflection in this case saved you a , likely short, tracking job. That’s great. A cut in contact might have just went through and you end up blood trailing. Score one for the flapper.

My point was to add to @BTaylor post. The broadhead deflection could have been a major contribution to the disconnect between what the eyes saw and reality

I dont believe that was the case with the doe as the shaft orientation in the spine was still perfectly straight in relation to the shot. Obviously can not absolutely confirm that. Yeah tracking job was about 30" vertical drop. I unequivocally have seen arrows deflect going through a deer with both mechanicals and fixed heads, it happens for sure. I only recall 2 deer I shot where that for sure occurred and a time or two with a hunting buddies. Have had a couple where the arrow path changed but I believe it was the result of the nearside leg moving back and making contact with the shaft as it went through. Exits were more forward than they otherwise should have been. I do agree that between mechanicals and fixed or coc heads, the mech's are more likely to have a deflection, esp on a steep angle or hard qtr shot.

 

[phatkaw]

The best we can do as bowhunters is hunt with proper equipment that is tuned and place our arrow as accurately as we can to a spot. Nothing after that is within our control other than giving maximum effort to the recovery any hit game and learn from the results of each shot.

Yeah, the scenarios are infinite. Every shot at Every deer will be different!

Six or seven years ago I 12 ringed a really nice 10pt (131"). I watched the arrow fly perfectly where I wanted it.
I was dumbfounded when he took off with what looked like not even a foot of arrow IN him!
I waited 'till almost dark before I went to where I last saw him. There was NO blood but I could see his tracks and disturbed leaves. I backed out and was gonna get him in the morning...
The next day was Sunday (no Sunday hunting in Pa) and watching the perfectly placed arrow I didn't think I should bother taking my bow with me for the recovery.
Ok, so there's like 5 drops of blood in the first hundred yards of tracking - that's it!
I use rustled leaves,, woodsmanship, terrain features and past experience on how mature bucks travel and about 3/4 of a mile later I'm just scanning 360° and there He is! About 35 yards away sorta behind me and watching me!
Now I just pretend I don't see him and continue my original direction and get out of there. Ok, now at this point I don't care that it was Sunday, I went home and got my bow!
I slip back in there and figured he'd still be there and I'd get a coup-de-gas in him... Nope - he was long gone...

My neighbor got him about 3 weeks later chasing a doe with only one thing on his mind!

 

[Spence71]

Blah blah blah. I can’t help but to hear l”stacies mom has got to going on” in my head when ever I see the OP handle.

Hahaha. Y’all be safe. Kill some critters.


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[Petrichor]

Wow

 

[Spence71]

It’s the dumb things. I also can’t write an email address with “yahoo” in it without singing the jingle. Like my son struggles to say his ABCs without singing them. It’s a little funny.


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