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Need some advice....

sdorton

sdorton

Well-Known Member
SH Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2019
Messages
346
Location
Kentucky
before I drive myself crazy. I need help with arrow tuning. So I'll try and explain. I got my Toelke Whistler about 6 weeks ago. 60" and 44# @ 30.5" I started off with 340 spine GT Classic XT with 200 Grain plus their insert/outsert up front. I knew it would be stiff but was going through the motions. Sure enough way stiff with full length arrow. When to 400 spine GT Classic XT with 200 Grain plus their insert/outsert up front. Showed a little weak. After several cuts I ended up with a 31.5" arrow carbon to outsert and man did fly like rockets. Brace height was 8" and nock pt. 5/8" high from center of nock. I shot everyday and turkey with it and this thing was shooting good. Should have known it wouldn't be that easy......

Then all of a sudden I started getting erratic arrow flight. No idea why. I checked and double checked everything. Even moved nock pt. and changed brace height. Arrow showed weak and extreme nock high. Tried the 340 spine again and it showed extreme stiff. So I changed point weight cause shortening the arrow was not an option with my draw length. 100 grain field pt. was money. Shot good for a few weeks and then showed stiffed, nock high again. When back to 200 grain field pt. and it was too weak. 125 grain field pt. was money again.

Now I'm getting erratic arrow flight again. Sometimes weak sometimes stiff. Hell.....I've never had this much trouble tuning a bow. I've really worked on my form this year and I shoot my Zipper recurve great. No issues at all there. That's why I don't believe its my form. I know I can improve it but I fell comfortable that its consistent enough to get a bow/arrow tuned.

Could the 400 spine be too stiff also and giving me a false reading? I just got a 500 spine (Same arrow) to start playing with and find out. If I can't figure it out soon I'll may just wrap the bow around a tree somewhere. LoL I've played with brace height, nock pts., point weights, and I'm about to go crazy. What would you guys think as far as arrow set up would/should work? Any help and/or advice would be greatly appreciated.
 
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JoyRyd said:
over canting the bow???
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I don't cant the bow when tuning so that I get as true of a reading as possible. I do cant the bow some with out shooting though. Nothing extreme. Just slightly.
 
sdorton said:
Good question.....I don't know what Dan cuts them at. I can't find anything on his website either.
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The reason I ask is that the degree of center shot will have a lot to do with the spine on the arrow that will work for a given overall arrow weight. I shoot a Hill style longbow and I need a weaker spine (500) with a 190 grizzly up front on a 100 grain steel adapter and a 100 grain steel insert ( about 400 grains up front) on a 56# bow. My arrow needs to snake around the riser and straighten out.
 
Just curious. What length is your zipper bow? Have you shot it long enough to know that the problem won't occur with that bow?

The only thing that is changing in the equation is you. You have an extremely long draw for a 60" bow. It's going to be really sensitive to your release and finger pressure. I have the same struggles with my 30" draw and even my 62" bows, although my problem is usually erratic nock high's. I have found that it's worse shooting off of the shelf, a rest like a hoyt super rest is a little more forgiving.
 
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GCTerpfan said:
Just curious. What length is your zipper bow? Have you shot it long enough to know that the problem won't occur with that bow?

The only thing that is changing in the equation is you. You have an extremely long draw for a 60" bow. It's going to be really sensitive to your release and finger pressure. I have the same struggles with my 30" draw and even my 62" bows, although my problem is usually erratic nock high's I have found that it's worse shooting off of the shelf, a rest like a hoyt super rest is a little more forgiving.
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So my Zipper is 60” too. Just 49# @ 28”. Pulling 30.5” guessing 54-55#. I’ve been shooting it 4yrs now.
 
sdorton said:
So my Zipper is 60” too. Just 49# @ 28”. Pulling 30.5” guessing 54-55#. I’ve been shooting it 4yrs now.
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Hmmm... something's changing with either you or the bow. Are you getting the erratic arrow flight with bare shafts or with fletched arrows?
 
I had a Toelke Pica and I’m almost certain it was cut right to center. I was pulling right around 49# @ 29” and shooting close to 400 grains up front on a 30.5” 400 spine Grizzlystik and as long as I did my part I was shooting darts. Before I went super high FOC I was shooting about 250 up front with 500 spine Goldtip Trads and results were the same
 
Take a video of your shooting session. Make sure you can see your anchor and bow arm. After you shoot an arrow say good or bad shot and take notice of anything that might be different. I’ll bet you’ll find your answer.
 
sdorton said:
getting erratic flight with both....
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I would try @Heydeerman's suggestion. Some bows are just more sensitive to changes in form or release. The bow I shot last year was giving me very similar problems. I had to put a Hoyt Super rest on it to get consistent arrow flight. It shot like a dream after that and I killed two whitetail and a Sika deer with it. Prior to putting on the rest I was ready to hang that bow up for good.
 
I think your getting a false weak. I shoot a 400 GT with 200 upfront and their insert out of a 50lb Toelke recurve and they are slightly stiff. You should definitely be in the 500 spine imo. Dan had my brace and Nick height set from factory. I still haven’t messed with them two years later. What tuning method are you using that you are getting erratic arrow flight weeks later are you bare-shafting still? Once you tuned and fletched the feathers will cover up and stabilize even a poorly tuned arrow to an extent. Take a step back. It’s not the bow.

Obviously if you are getting good tune and then way weak you are getting something weird. There is no way a 400 shaft is weak out of that bow with only 200 hundred up front and my god 340 is not even close. Sounds like you’ve changed a crap ton of things in pretty short order which is a no no in tuning. No matter the tuning method (though if you are bareshafting or paper tuning I think your wasting your time) I tune in following order. Brace height first. Then nock height then everything arrow. Yes playing with brace and nock can help late in the tuning process in an emergency but I’d stay away from that if possible.

When you say weak reading let’s talk about that. Do you mean bareshaft groups are off from fletched groups? Or direction of bareshaft nock of arrow in target? Or are you watching the fletched arrow flight in video and watching the paradox? In my opinion the first two are pretty useless unless your form is really really good. Also if watching the direction of the arrow nock the reading can be skewed depending on the target material.

How many arrows are you using to tune?

I use Clay Hayes method of tuning with a fletch shaft until I it’s perfect in the video. Great thing about tuning by video is you can tell when the reading was you messing up the shot. Now once arrows fletched are flying perfect I don’t go bareshaft like he does, instead I throw on a broadhead (on fletched shafts only) and continue to watch the arrow flight in the video. It’s easy. You used fletched arrows and an iPhone. I can usually tune from start to finish in an hour.
 
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Petrichor said:
I think your getting a false weak. I shoot a 400 GT with 200 upfront and their insert out of a 50lb Toelke recurve and they are slightly stiff. You should definitely be in the 500 spine imo. Dan had my brace and Nick height set from factory. I still haven’t messed with them two years later. What tuning method are you using that you are getting erratic arrow flight weeks later are you bare-shafting still? Once you tuned and fletched the feathers will cover up and stabilize even a poorly tuned arrow to an extent. Take a step back. It’s not the bow.

Obviously if you are getting good tune and then way weak you are getting something weird. There is no way a 400 shaft is weak out of that bow with only 200 hundred up front and my god 340 is not even close. Sounds like you’ve changed a crap ton of things in pretty short order which is a no no in tuning. No matter the tuning method (though if you are bareshafting or paper tuning I think your wasting your time) I tune in following order. Brace height first. Then nock height then everything arrow. Yes playing with brace and nock can help late in the tuning process in an emergency but I’d stay away from that if possible.

When you say weak reading let’s talk about that. Do you mean bareshaft groups are off from fletched groups? Or direction of bareshaft nock of arrow in target? Or are you watching the fletched arrow flight in video and watching the paradox? In my opinion the first two are pretty useless unless your form is really really good. Also if watching the direction of the arrow nock the reading can be skewed depending on the target material.

How many arrows are you using to tune?

I use Clay Hayes method of tuning with a fletch shaft until I it’s perfect in the video. Great thing about tuning by video is you can tell when the reading was you messing up the shot. Now once arrows fletched are flying perfect I don’t go bareshaft like he does, instead I throw on a broadhead (on fletched shafts only) and continue to watch the arrow flight in the video. It’s easy. You used fletched arrows and an iPhone. I can usually tune from start to finish in an hour.
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I wouldn't be so quick to tell him the 400 spine is too stiff. If that bow is cut close or past center his 30.5" draw will most likely require a 400 spine. I have a 44# recurve that is cut to center and shoots a 400 spine GT with 300gr up front cut to 31". I have a 30" draw.
 
GCTerpfan said:
I wouldn't be so quick to tell him the 400 spine is too stiff. If that bow is cut close or past center his 30.5" draw will most likely require a 400 spine. I have a 44# recurve that is cut to center and shoots a 400 spine GT with 300gr up front cut to 31". I have a 30" draw.
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Sure he could do it with maybe 300 up front. Disagree. At current specs he posted seems way stiff. Also not sure on the cut to center, my chinook doesn’t look quite to center.
 
sdorton said:
When to 400 spine GT Classic XT with 200 Grain plus their insert/outsert up front. Showed a little weak. After several cuts I ended up with a 31.5" arrow carbon to outsert and man did fly like rockets.
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Petrichor said:
Sure he could do it with maybe 300 up front. Disagree. At current specs he posted seems way stiff. Also not sure on the cut to center, my chinook doesn’t look quite to center.
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I don't know what the insert/outsert he is using weighs but I was assuming he was close to 300 grains up front when he said it was tuned and he hunted turkeys with it.

I do agree the erratic flight could be caused from too stiff and getting riser bounce. But something had to change.

@sdorton, Has your string stretched and brace height changed? Are you anchoring a little different and your draw is shorter? If it was tuned during turkey season and now it's not something had to change. You just need to figure out what.
 
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