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Yes, we have several different zones and each one has different openings for “season” even our ruts are different. South Florida deer don’t begin rut in fall like north east fl deer
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Nutterbuster Spreads(sheets) It Wide Open
- Thread starter Nutterbuster
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I've never even killed a buck.... hahahaha
The only except able way we should be mentioned together in the same sentence would be, "hey weldabeast... sarcasm in funny to a point.... but u shouldn't disrespect John eberhart, he's a legend,...stop being such a d*ck"
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Hence my lol at the end. I think even John could appreciate the sarcasm in my statement lol… I’d love to have any one of his deer heads on my wall and the man has over 50. With that said, it’s still gonna be hard for guys like us to find a P&Y deer in our area. Our odds go up if we travel to the panhandle. But even then it’s not like they are greatly improved
I haven't reached the point that antlers matter to me yet....I'm lucky to kill something period, let alone something with large impressive antlers
I dont disagree with the article at all I just dont care much for the message it sends. It has a sort of treat the symptom rather than the problem message. It doesnt matter whether we are talking about public or private ground, we can more significantly improve soil and forage quality and quantity with a chainsaw and a match than we can with the plow. Nevermind bi-yearly rotational warm and cool season planting using no-till to build soil in open ground. Interesting read, thanks for the link.
LAKY
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The message the study sends is that even in an area with no ag, by managing the natural vegetation with chainsaw and fire, you can elevate the nutritional plane for the local deer. Most of those deer in that area have never seen a feeder and it was on some of the worst soil in the country. The message was, if it can be done there, it can be done just about anywhere.
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As a certified compatriot I appreciate the sympathy and the prayers.
Hunting here has trained my reactive mind to pretty much expect all deer to either be female, or at least have no such thing as antlers (of any substance). I've got a surprise spike and a surprise button buck on my kill list as evidence
This past year I saw a deer with small but obvious antlers and my first thought was: "What the heck is wrong with that deer?"
Things that haven't been discussed (unless I missed it) is season duration and especially what season during the rut. For instance, Maryland is bow season during their rut while across the river in Virginia, they are running the hell out of deer with hounds with guns shooting anything and stacking them up. Next major factor is number of tags. Watch how picky lots of hunters would get if they can't shoot unlimited bucks or like Virginia 3. Only allow me one buck per season and my standards would go way up not to mention a lot more bucks would get to that magic age to express their true potential.
LAKY
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The bucks below are on a public hunting area in one of the poorest soil areas in the country with no ag or feeders for miles. It's in one of those top 10 worst places (ranked by area) for P&Y deer. This area's food is managed by chainsaw and fire.
This video goes into detail:
This video goes into detail:
I don't believe you. Public land where? I have to see for myself 
sdoyle1
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I don’t know if you’re addressing my comment or just a bunch of comments in general. I only made my comment to say the numbers are actually much higher than what is documented. I believe this happens in every state as well. I do believe we can’t just compare state to state as there’s some variables that skew the results even though these are most likely the best numbers to work with and I do find the results interesting. The differing lengths of seasons between states will make a difference in these numbers. Wisconsin allows crossbow use for the entire archery season and since P&Y doesn’t acknowledge crossbow use this will likely skew the results compared to a state that has bow only seasons.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
tha
There are variables that can push and pull the data for sure. But there really isn't anything that can make a Florida or Vermont a Wisconsin or Iowa. By all means I encourage folks to dig deeper into the areas where they actually plan on hunting. I'm getting to that next and plan to keep showing people how to work down.
@LAKY, there is a word for that area and those deer. Anomalies. If you go to college and choose to get an art major, you technically COULD end up a millionaire. Folks have done it. But if I had to bet 100 times on an engineering student vs an art student making that number, id pick the engineering student every time without thinking and eat the loss on the 1%.
Meh. I'm pulling records from back to 1908. That's a hundred years of data before crossbows were really a thing.
There are variables that can push and pull the data for sure. But there really isn't anything that can make a Florida or Vermont a Wisconsin or Iowa. By all means I encourage folks to dig deeper into the areas where they actually plan on hunting. I'm getting to that next and plan to keep showing people how to work down.
@LAKY, there is a word for that area and those deer. Anomalies. If you go to college and choose to get an art major, you technically COULD end up a millionaire. Folks have done it. But if I had to bet 100 times on an engineering student vs an art student making that number, id pick the engineering student every time without thinking and eat the loss on the 1%.
There are multiple record keeping organizations too that you can look at. P&Y is my favorite because it's large and standardized. B&C is also well known (hence more likely to have a buck recorded in it) but their minimum entry for a typical is 160. Alabama has like...9 deer under B&C. Not a big enough sample size to make meaningful inferences. There's the Buckmasters database and the National Safari Club database, but again, smaller sample size because most people haven't heard of them.
Lots of states either have state or privately run trophy record keeping organizations, and those can be immensely useful especially in states with poorer ability to produce trophy deer. It's easier for Bubba Joe to make sense of the process and enter in his 100" deer. Alabama Whitetail Records has like 10 times the trophy entries as P&Y typical for Alabama. The trouble is finding that data and then pulling what you want from it. It's not always well organized. Heck, AWR is actually defunct now and 2 years ago they were "revamping" and opened a museum that's now closed and had an online database. I'm glad I pulled that data while it was available because it may be gone forever. Or it could be back up in a few years. Who knows?
Lots of states either have state or privately run trophy record keeping organizations, and those can be immensely useful especially in states with poorer ability to produce trophy deer. It's easier for Bubba Joe to make sense of the process and enter in his 100" deer. Alabama Whitetail Records has like 10 times the trophy entries as P&Y typical for Alabama. The trouble is finding that data and then pulling what you want from it. It's not always well organized. Heck, AWR is actually defunct now and 2 years ago they were "revamping" and opened a museum that's now closed and had an online database. I'm glad I pulled that data while it was available because it may be gone forever. Or it could be back up in a few years. Who knows?
LAKY
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The anomaly in that situation is the vegetation is being managed in a way that supplies optimal nutrition. The deer aren't different. What they're eating is.
Right. I'm aware that you can manage deer. I was in a club on the Alabama/Florida line that was able to get average body weight up 20% in just a couple of years under QDMA. We were also lucky enough to have money and some really good farmers. For the same amount of money as our club dues there, my dad and I could have driven to the midwest every year for a weekend and had a way better ROI hunting public land. Or just drove to a different county in Alabama. We also have managed a 120 acre lease for 10 years and it performs better than the surrounding area, but given that the county it's in has 0 P&Y deer on record and only a handful entered into the AWR and we're both of average means...care to guess what success looks like there?
That's what I'm getting at here. For the average guy, especially if he's on a forum that predominately talks about hunting "mobile" on public land, money put in the gas tank is the best money he can spend. Even if he's just driving to another part of his state. In every state, there are hunters who hunt their local WMA every weekend out of convenience, but could probably drive 2-3 hours and hunt 3 weekends and do as well or better. Or buy a 3 day out-of-state license and drive 7 hours once a year and over a 10 year period have way more bone on the wall than if they kept plugging away locally.
I'm not unaware of the exceptions to the rule. I know 100 acres of public land here in a county with 0 P&Y bucks and sandy soil and a clogged interstate that coughs up some 100-120" deer every year when the average is maybe 80. I'd say maybe 100 people know about it and only 10 bother to hunt it. That doesn't help 99% of the hunters in my county kill better deer.
I'm trying to help people manage expectations and stop chasing butterflies. Don't go giving folks false hopes with your P&Y public land piney woods deer!
LAKY
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I'm not trying to give people false hopes. I'm trying to show that if their local WMA could be AMW (actively managed for wildlife), they would see increases in buck sizes. There's not a lot of pressure (with exceptions) put on agencies to manage the woods for wildlife.Right. I'm aware that you can manage deer. I was in a club on the Alabama/Florida line that was able to get average body weight up 20% in just a couple of years under QDMA. We were also lucky enough to have money and some really good farmers. For the same amount of money as our club dues there, my dad and I could have driven to the midwest every year for a weekend and had a way better ROI hunting public land. Or just drove to a different county in Alabama. We also have managed a 120 acre lease for 10 years and it performs better than the surrounding area, but given that the county it's in has 0 P&Y deer on record and only a handful entered into the AWR and we're both of average means...care to guess what success looks like there?
That's what I'm getting at here. For the average guy, especially if he's on a forum that predominately talks about hunting "mobile" on public land, money put in the gas tank is the best money he can spend. Even if he's just driving to another part of his state. In every state, there are hunters who hunt their local WMA every weekend out of convenience, but could probably drive 2-3 hours and hunt 3 weekends and do as well or better. Or buy a 3 day out-of-state license and drive 7 hours once a year and over a 10 year period have way more bone on the wall than if they kept plugging away locally.
I'm not unaware of the exceptions to the rule. I know 100 acres of public land here in a county with 0 P&Y bucks and sandy soil and a clogged interstate that coughs up some 100-120" deer every year when the average is maybe 80. I'd say maybe 100 people know about it and only 10 bother to hunt it. That doesn't help 99% of the hunters in my county kill better deer.
I'm trying to help people manage expectations and stop chasing butterflies. Don't go giving folks false hopes with your P&Y public land piney woods deer!
As much as I love looking at the data, appreciate Nut's hard work collecting it, and think it is useful for reporting broad trends across whole regions, there is so much bias in a reporting system like this.
In human health, this is called volunteer bias.
catalogofbias.org
The central idea is: reporting rates vary widely with culture, affluence, region, and many other factors. I know for almost CERTAIN that in some states, like in the midwest, there is a higher prestige and acceptance surrounding "book bucks" than here in the south. How many times do you hear midwest hunters like Eberhart mention these scoring systems? Frequently. I personally believe that the culture is different in the south and less emphasis is put on those deer. Also, if you are in an area of fewer "trophy class" animals than average, I think you may be more likely to NOT report your kill as you don't want to draw attention to your spot/area. This further exaggerates stratification between top and bottom ranked states.
The best way of navigating this is probably to try and secure mandatory harvest reporting data from game and fish agencies for each state, I know it is available by county in some forms in TN. Then volunteer bias is largely eliminated.
Finally, this information is purely based on arbitrary lines we humans drew in the sand to subdivide our country based very loosely on natural barriers. This means fertile river valleys with great soil and harsh mountain terrain are very frequently grouped together in places like the Appalachian states and Arkansas. This is a gigantic flaw in this approach, and a regional analysis based on geography or soil maps would be much more useful, for instance, using county-level PY data and classifying counties by average soil quality.
I know this isn't really feasible to do and you are working with what you've got. But I think comparing your opportunity between states (like oh I have a better chance in NC than SC) is beyond pointless here using this reporting system. Look at the Georgia numbers and then go watch Seek One's youtube channel and see what I mean.
In human health, this is called volunteer bias.
Volunteer bias
Participants volunteering to take part in a study intrinsically have different characteristics from the general population of interest.
catalogofbias.org
The central idea is: reporting rates vary widely with culture, affluence, region, and many other factors. I know for almost CERTAIN that in some states, like in the midwest, there is a higher prestige and acceptance surrounding "book bucks" than here in the south. How many times do you hear midwest hunters like Eberhart mention these scoring systems? Frequently. I personally believe that the culture is different in the south and less emphasis is put on those deer. Also, if you are in an area of fewer "trophy class" animals than average, I think you may be more likely to NOT report your kill as you don't want to draw attention to your spot/area. This further exaggerates stratification between top and bottom ranked states.
The best way of navigating this is probably to try and secure mandatory harvest reporting data from game and fish agencies for each state, I know it is available by county in some forms in TN. Then volunteer bias is largely eliminated.
Finally, this information is purely based on arbitrary lines we humans drew in the sand to subdivide our country based very loosely on natural barriers. This means fertile river valleys with great soil and harsh mountain terrain are very frequently grouped together in places like the Appalachian states and Arkansas. This is a gigantic flaw in this approach, and a regional analysis based on geography or soil maps would be much more useful, for instance, using county-level PY data and classifying counties by average soil quality.
I know this isn't really feasible to do and you are working with what you've got. But I think comparing your opportunity between states (like oh I have a better chance in NC than SC) is beyond pointless here using this reporting system. Look at the Georgia numbers and then go watch Seek One's youtube channel and see what I mean.
Fair enough. It's a whole separate conversation but it may be possible. Given that we lose hunters and gain birdwatchers every year and the national debt keeps growing leaving most dcnr agencies underfunded I'm not holding my breath for my home state, but it could happen. Alabama did recently implement the SOA program, but looking at the properties they added to it this year and seeing the trend in harvest results on the properties the past few years, I'm afraid it's gonna fizzle.
Most hunters will read this thread, think it's interesting, and keep doing what they're doing. Some will realize they should lower their expectations and their hunting will be less frustrating. A few will start driving. Maybe a few guys campaign for better management. I'll sign the Alabama petition for sure. Probably won't help but sure can't hurt.
LAKY
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And, don't think I'm not one to jump ship and hunt somewhere else to get to bigger deer. When I found out that I could BUY land in one of the top states at a note that was cheaper than a good lease in one of the worst states for P&Y, that's exactly what I did. Now, I hunt in a county in a spot that produces B&C and P&Y bucks in one of the top states for much cheaper than a truck note. Also, I have quick access from my property to some pretty good public spots as well.