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Pods

I oppose legalization/regulation of anectine pods in conjunction with standard broadheads for huntin

  • Yay

    Votes: 25 38.5%
  • nay

    Votes: 25 38.5%
  • Uncertain

    Votes: 11 16.9%
  • Wait...pods aren't legal?

    Votes: 4 6.2%

  • Total voters
    65
So after doing some reading online and some of the posts here. I voted nay.

1.) In regards to Mr.Bear. I think there is an error in his argument about using POD to increase lethality of bow hunting which in turn help perserve bow hunting in general. Bow hunting is inherently not as effective as gun hunting, 99.9% of people would agree with this. Lethality=effective is true, but I feel you then disregard some of the spirit in which you are bow hunting in the first place. If all you care about is effectiveness, go crossbow or gun. Some of the muzzleloader community are saying the same thing. That modern technology and effectiveness in the newer 'muzzleloader' take away the true spirit of USING a muzzleloader, might as well get a regular rifle.

2.) Argument that human around the whole has been using chemical in their hunting arsenal for a long time is true, but what was acceptable in the past is not always acceptable now. Not talking about 'woke' whatever, just in general. The circumstances are different at different point of history. At this point, most hunting are done recreationally and some practices just are not acceptable. I hope this is not true, but most of us are not depending on hunting or else our family starves. So things like dynamite fishing, POD, and running whole herd off cliffs are not ok in today's world.

3.) Fair chase is honestly subjective, there is a 'general' agreement and official rules set by organizations. But as a community I don't think we are all the same in how we define 'far chase' and 'hunting'. One of my coworker is a back deck 'hunter'. He has a feeder in his backyard that he harvest deer from annually. The cell cam alert his phone, if he is home, he grab a 30-06 or crossbow, quietly walk to his deck and its a done deal. Not my style, but his argument is logical. Instead of scouting for a food source on public land, and setting up on the trail, he bringing the deer to him. Private land owner do the same thing by renovating their landscape to bring deer in like hinge cutting and planting food. Can't argue that it is more effective, but I said this to him, I think you are just harvesting now, not hunting. JMHO.

4.) Someone posted a good point. If we accept the use of POD in arrows, what strong objection would there be if we mix in the chemical in bait? Or feeder? What about spikey snares coated with the chemical?

5.) I'm going to touch a little bit on politics. So one of the main core argument is we should all be allow to use what we feel is right for us. That when the government make one more law, we loses a little more of our freedom. But I argue that sometimes we have to trust the process and that some laws does improve society as a whole. I remember reading that whitetail in America were close to extinction at one point, that with conservation programs and hunting regulations, they are actually overpopulated now. My father in law has a picture of his dad next to 6 hanging deer in the middle of July, told me that was just a random day harvest.

6.) In regards to public views, I say the hunting community will lose the general public if we started to embrace POD. This is based on my view that the general public are too lazy to look deeply into the topic, they will instantly think 'poison' and go the route of 'better safe then sorry', just say no.
 
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Nay vote. I don’t want chemicals in my meat.

in regards to this is not a Disney poison.... I am not going to google this, cause google censors. If it’s not a natural substance than it’s a chemical so I don’t want it. We have to much crap put in our food as is. I agree you and it’s a shame you can’t always take people at there word. I apply that to media and big tech more so. I will not “trust the science”.

Nutter- not sure why we are chasing 100% recovery, I understand we can do better, but 100% isn’t life. It just sounds like you want every deer that’s shot to die quickly, 100% of them. My concern would be people will just start shooting at deer with zero aiming. They will start to only rely on pod. We will inevitably become worse hunters/sportsman and are grand kids will hunt with frickin drones and lasers!!
I admit I haven’t read all the posts yet, I also don’t believe my mind will be changed on the subject. We need less regulation and I believe this would eventually lead to more regs.
I believe the deer numbers in my area would be next to zero if every Tom **** and Harry used PODS. PODs like everything else will be abused.
just my opinions
 
I mean, I also have no emotional reaction to the fact that the battery in this phone was mined by a kid who lives in abject poverty and will probably die of cancer best case scenario. Nor do I have an emotional response to the idea that the UN and WHO recognize that millions of slaves still exist around the world.

On the other hand, it does resonate with me that some estimates conclude that 1 in every 4 women in the US will suffer rape or attempted rape, and my personal knowledge of my immediate family validates that number.

But at the end of the day, emotions aside, I recognize that the first 2 things probably are worse than the third.

I think that when we're killing 8x the global human population of chickens each year (50 billion), plus all the other animals; and we're not really sure to what extent they're capable of suffering (but the line between us and them gets thinner each year as far as neuroscientists are concerned)...we have a massive problem to look into.

I recognize the problem on an intellectual level, but not an emotional one. I couldn't crush a human child's head, but I can bite a ducks with no problem, despite the fact that I know they both feel about the same thing. Given that, I'm quite open to discussions and reconsidering the norms I've been raised with.
Don't take this the wrong way, but if you have no emotional stake in the game, why all the ethical hand wringing? Is it an intellectual exercise? Is it all academic? The disconnect is this as far as empathy goes. Most people have no problem with where their cell phones battery comes from or modern slavery because they don't personally know someone who is mining the lithium or know someone who disappeared into a shipping container. If they actually knew someone who suffered this fate, they might have a different opinion. Maybe not. Stalin quipped, "the death of one man is a tragedy, the death of a million men is a statistic". He knew what he was talking about.

As to pods. I oppose them, mainly because the general public's emotional response to using poison is negative and we as hunters don't need that association. Also, If I fall out of a tree and end up with a broadhead in my leg, I would rather it not have pod on it.
 
No PODS for me. That’s my vote.
Also if this takes NDs archery season success rates to let’s say Fifty percent, you can kiss my guaranteed resident archery tag good buy. You can also forget about coming to hunt in ND if your a nonresident you won’t be able to get a tag.. hard enough time as it is drawing a tag for the gun season.
Guys in states that can shoot five deer - eight deer might be taking it for granted. To each his own I guess.
 
4.) Someone posted a good point. If we accept the use of POD in arrows, what strong objection would there be if we mix in the chemical in bait? Or feeder? What about spikey snares coated with the chemical?.

It has to be injected directly into the bloodstream for it to work so mixing it into bait doesn't make sense. Secondly it's administered as a very fine powder, it's not something you paint onto a surface and POW! anything that touches it is a goner. If left out in the elements the powder will quickly clump up and be unusable. Regardless, archery and trapping are two completely different things and can/do coexist with different sets of rules. With archery you can verify the target with 100% accuracy before shooting, not so with trapping
 
Just a comment on the poll. A “nay” vote is actually supporting the legalization of PODS. Tricky poll wording.
Glad you caught that. Ole' nutter (now with the lower case "N" notice) must be in babysitting mode already!!!! Get out and kill somethin' will ya???
 
If pods allowed in some states, do they have an asterisk next to their records in p&y and B&c books or is that not allowed? P&y and B&C have zero bearing on my own choices, but thought I would pose the question for the hell of it.
 
Rambo-bow-and-arrow-big.jpgR.jpg

Is this considered a pod? I'll change my vote if it is. But really, I don't know enough to say one way or the other. If it is clean for harvesting animals I'm for it, but I'd just be concerned about public opinion (lawmakers).
 
Just a comment on the poll. A “nay” vote is actually supporting the legalization of PODS. Tricky poll wording.
In hindsight yeah.

Two responses...a pre-coffee one and a truer post-coffee one.

Pre-coffee response: The poll has nothing to do with getting people's thoughts. It's a test to see who gets a poison-arrow permit in the Brave New World @kyler1945 and I are building. If the double-negative tripped you up, maybe you really don't need a sharp arrow and a pod, and you're really making @GCTerpfan's point about people really being that dumb.

JUST KIDDING! I LOVE ALL Y'ALL GUYS!

Post-coffee response: I worded it that way because I wanted to separate the "I wouldn't use it for me personally" nay votes from the "I don't think anybody should use it" ones. I felt that "I'm in favor of anectine pods" or something like that would lump those 2 together. I didn't think about the potential confusion it would cause. I knew before reading the poll this morning something was up though, because way too many people were agreeing with me!

I feel like we maybe haven't really discussed the actual nuts and bolts of anectine enough. I'm not an expert, but reading up on it I can't see how it poses any more threat to hunters than the broadhead already does.

Here are some numbers on anectine dosage for complete paralysis of ungulates:



and numbers for usage to intubate humans:


3-4mg/kg intramuscular dosage for adults, 0.06mg/kg intramuscular dosage for deer. They're 50-60x more sensitive to it. It's like how nicotine gives us a buzz and kills insects stone-cold dead.

I can find no recorded case of hunter harm in Mississippi or anywhere else where it's legal or at least in common use. If you manage to unroll the pod, that means you did more than nick yourself. You put a broadhead and shaft through yourself. Even if you did get enough in your system to hurt you (doubtful) you'll be ok if you're around somebody who knows CPR.

Getting sick from eating it isn't a thing. If you put a lethal dose in a deer, and then ate the whole deer, and did it immediately after the deer had died...you're still eating 1/50th of a dose. Anectine has been widely used for a while and to my understanding it doesn't build in tissue and there aren't any issues with repeated administration. And I don't even know if oral ingestion is effective. Can't find info on it. Seems to always be injected intravenously or intramuscularly.

We can haggle on numbers a bit. I'm sure a pod may contain more than a lethal dose for whitetails, or somebody may be more sensitive to it. I'm just saying there's a really high margin for error and a really low risk. Again, it was in fairly wide use in some areas for a bit with no fatalities I can see. And like @kyler1945 said, it basically does the same thing a broadhead does. How is that crueler than what we're already unanimously in favor of?

As far as why I care and all that...like I said, just because I don't suffer an emotional response doesn't mean I don't care, and I'd also selfishly like the option to know my arrow was as lethal as possible when a deer steps out because I like eating deer. If you don't that's fine but I hope you understand my pushback when you refuse a tool that could reduce suffering just because you want to challenge yourself. I can see ground hunting, hunting without camo, hunting without trail cameras, and stuff like that, but once the trigger is pulled this isn't about you anymore.

I get increasingly confused by the dichotomy between mainstream sportsmanship norms and actual concern for a game animal's suffering. 8 pages in and to my recollection we don't have a single person arguing that pods would increase suffering in deer. We do have posts pointing out that it would be a more effective tool and there would be more dead deer, but we're hunters, so we're already clearly in the clear with regards to our feelings on making live deer dead.

We also have plenty of debate over whether or not we do things to make other people like us, while simultaneously having a conversation about what people would think of us or what we think of people who would use pods.
 
If pods allowed in some states, do they have an asterisk next to their records in p&y and B&c books or is that not allowed? P&y and B&C have zero bearing on my own choices, but thought I would pose the question for the hell of it.

As far as I'm aware that issue was hashed out decades ago, no animals taken with a pod are allowed. They were amongst the loudest voices getting them banned in the first place.
 
If you don't that's fine but I hope you understand my pushback when you refuse a tool that could reduce suffering just because you want to challenge yourself.
This argument could be used to iso banning traditional archery, compounds, xbows, muzzleloaders, all the way up the food chain until you’re debating what is the best caliber to reduce suffering. This could be extrapolated even further into dictating where you’re allowed to shoot game.

This is the same reason you have said time and time again, that you can’t understand why anyone would want to hunt with traditional bows. So hopefully you can understand how people would be weary of someone who doesn’t understand their position. Slippery slope.

I don’t think I would concede the lethality nor the efficiency of a traditional bow and arrow. When placed in the same location it will have the same devastating lethality and efficiency at killing the game. This comes down to the hunter and not the equipment and would be considered human error. And just like other regulations placed on humans by the government they can’t fix stupid. Amateur hunters shooting untuned compounds, poorly sited in xbows, rifles etc. are still going to exist. I don’t think pods will be the answer and like others said it will only decrease the skill and sportsmanship. Making things easier for people only diminishes that thing, it never increases it. Most people will meet or be below the bar, and few will strive to go past it.
 
This argument could be used to iso banning traditional archery, compounds, xbows, muzzleloaders, all the way up the food chain until you’re debating what is the best caliber to reduce suffering. This could be extrapolated even further into dictating where you’re allowed to shoot game.

This is the same reason you have said time and time again, that you can’t understand why anyone would want to hunt with traditional bows. So hopefully you can understand how people would be weary of someone who doesn’t understand their position. Slippery slope.

I don’t think I would concede the lethality nor the efficiency of a traditional bow and arrow. When placed in the same location it will have the same devastating lethality and efficiency at killing the game. This comes down to the hunter and not the equipment and would be considered human error. And just like other regulations placed on humans by the government they can’t fix stupid. Amateur hunters shooting untuned compounds, poorly sited in xbows, rifles etc. are still going to exist. I don’t think pods will be the answer and like others said it will only decrease the skill and sportsmanship. Making things easier for people only diminishes that thing, it never increases it. Most people will meet or be below the bar, and few will strive to go past it.

Speculative.
 
I wonder if a parallel can be drawn to Ashby heavy arrow plan b vital v foc stuff.

People are spending oodles of time money and focus on a very narrow scope of hunting efficacy. And one could argue that the results are way more missed wounded and unfound deer.

Not only is this behavior accepted, it’s lionized.

And yet, the argument against pods is that people might shoot worse. When that’s happening before our very eyes with heavy arrows.


Why is it ok to attempt to pursue more business end of shot efficacy, resulting in poorer shooting with heavy arrows, but not the same wjth pods?


I don’t think it will have this effect, but I’m willing to entertain the argument. We’ve got to get past this bump first though…
 
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