Poll - Would you pay a tax/fee to allow use of spurs/bolts/screw in steps?

[kyler1945]

Ok I’m going to try and contour this as simply as possible. It won’t be perfect.

First, a couple of assumptions:

- we can measure the cost of tree damage, and assign a value to it.

- we can develop a margin for error on the above measurement, and be conservative in the assessment.

- we can measure the cost of personal injury incurred by professionals who work with trees that may have metal left in them. Also, it’s 2023, not 1987. We can assign a value to these injuries.

- we can develop a margin for error in the above measurements, and be conservative in the assessment.

- we can include the costs for more robust studies on tree health, and the impacts that these climbing methods have on it.

- we can update our management techniques often as we learn more. And we can remain open to the idea that we very likely have no idea if the impacts are positive or negative with regard to the entire ecosystem and our management goals.

Ok….

Taking those priors on board, lets assume a few options for poll:

 

[Plebe]

What does the fee pay for?

 

[kyler1945]

What does the fee pay for?

Any and all costs related to the use of spurs/bolts/screw in steps.

 

[Nutterbuster]

I'd pay-to-play if that became an option.

But I honestly think the "beer in the campground" system in place is good. The sign says no beer, but nobody is looking in your cooler unless it's been a problem and/or you're giving them a reason to look.

 

[thedutchtouch]

You forgot an option for "I don't care if it's legal but am anti-fees". That's what I would select if I had the option so selected no with current options. Somewhat of a robbing peter to pay Paul poll here lol

 

[kyler1945]

You forgot an option for "I don't care if it's legal but am anti-fees". That's what I would select if I had the option so selected no with current options. Somewhat of a robbing peter to pay Paul poll here lol

Added.

 

[thedutchtouch]

Added.

Changed to support. But can't afford the fees lol.

 

[Plebe]

Any and all costs related to the use of spurs/bolts/screw in steps.

I guess I don't completely get it.

Is there an assessor (tree expert) who goes out and identifies and examines all the dead trees in a block of timber on a recurring basis, conducts a thorough investigation of each one to determine the cause, and then marks those damaged by bolts/spurs/screws (pin and paint)? Following that does an arborist crew go out and fell the marked trees and remove the trees and stumps following minimal impact practices? And then is a new tree planted to replace the felled tree? And the fee pays for this service and lost tree revenue and an ongoing impact study?

 

[kyler1945]

I guess I don't completely get it.

Is there an assessor (tree expert) who goes out and identifies and examines all the dead trees in a block of timber on a recurring basis, conducts a thorough investigation of each one to determine the cause, and then marks those damaged by bolts/spurs/screws (pin and paint)? Following that does an arborist crew go out and fell the marked trees and remove the trees and stumps following minimal impact practices? And then is a new tree planted to replace the felled tree? And the fee pays for this service and lost tree revenue and an ongoing impact study?

I’m imagining a very different process.

But costs would be calculated, and it would be paid for by the tax/fee.

I’m not super interested in poking holes in procedure yet. Just trying to see if we all agree in principle. Don’t worry, there will be plenty of time to point out how incompetent everyone is if we see that it’s even an option!

 

[Horn]

Almost 2/3 of voters opposed legalization in the other poll. Not sure how making them pay for the activity they oppose is supposed to sway someone

 

[Nutterbuster]

Almost 2/3 of voters opposed legalization in the other poll. Not sure how making them pay for the activity they oppose is supposed to sway someone

We routinely solve problems the way ole kyler is suggesting. I'm not saying i think it works in this scenario or not, but it's fairly routine.

The idea of money to offset a crime (or sin, or injustice, depending on context) is arguably a staple of western society in particular.

 

[Horn]

We routinely solve problems the way ole kyler is suggesting. I'm not saying i think it works in this scenario or not, but it's fairly routine.

The idea of money to offset a crime (or sin, or injustice, depending on context) is arguably a staple of western society in particular.

That's fair

I think you hit the nail on the head with the beer at the campground analogy.

I think what we've really learned in the last few weeks in some of these threads is that change is hard. Really hard, seemingly regardless of evidence or reasoning. I don't think that's unique to the SH forum either

 

[BTaylor]

Voted no on the poll but wanted to qualify it. I would support a permit up to $100 for using spurs and would probably buy a pair. I am not in favor of screw-ins or bolts on public land.

 

[kyler1945]

That's fair

I think you hit the nail on the head with the beer at the campground analogy.

I think what we've really learned in the last few weeks in some of these threads is that change is hard. Really hard, seemingly regardless of evidence or reasoning. I don't think that's unique to the SH forum either

It’s really hard to get people to change their minds, because of what doing so will cost them.

When you believe something, and your identity is wrapped up in believing it, it’s even harder.

Changing your mind on a topic might mean you give up other things you might believe in. It might mean losing relationships, careers, a sense of belonging, etc.

When you consider the cost, it’s no wonder people don’t change their minds often.

I promise you one thing. I have no illusions that anything I say on here will directly change someone’s mind. All you can do is continue to put information in the pot, and offer people soft landing strips if they decide to pull the rip cord.

 

[LAKY]

Nope. I'm good with a pay if I get caught scenario.

 

[Plebe]

It’s really hard to get people to change their minds, because of what doing so will cost them.

When you believe something, and your identity is wrapped up in believing it, it’s even harder.

Changing your mind on a topic might mean you give up other things you might believe in. It might mean losing relationships, careers, a sense of belonging, etc.

When you consider the cost, it’s no wonder people don’t change their minds often.

I promise you one thing. I have no illusions that anything I say on here will directly change someone’s mind. All you can do is continue to put information in the pot, and offer people soft landing strips if they decide to pull the rip cord.

Sometimes the data just doesn't figure, that's all.

 

[rhagenw]

Was indifferent until I realize some of you guys hunt pine plantations. It is a hard no for me. Way to expensive to build as it is.

 

[kyler1945]

Sometimes the data just doesn't figure, that's all.

If people had way fewer opinions, and expressed them with much less fervor, much less often, with clear intention of expressing their team colors, I’d tend to agree that sometimes that happens, and maybe even much of the time that happens.


Yes, sometimes people don’t change their mind because there’s little evidence to indicate that “truth” means they should.

I have a clearly unpopular opinion that usually people don’t change their mind, completely irrespective of evidence, truth, or data. It’s just simply too costly or uncomfortable to do so.

 

[rhagenw]

If people had way fewer opinions, and expressed them with much less fervor, much less often, with clear intention of expressing their team colors, I’d tend to agree that sometimes that happens, and maybe even much of the time that happens.


Yes, sometimes people don’t change their mind because there’s little evidence to indicate that “truth” means they should.

I have a clearly unpopular opinion that usually people don’t change their mind, completely irrespective of evidence, truth, or data. It’s just simply too costly or uncomfortable to do so.

Well count me as an oddity because I most definitely change mine is it could impact my family due to cost of buying/building a new home. Maybe you can adjust the pole stating pine trees are off limit and fine would of to be severe if damaging one of them.

 

[thedutchtouch]

I changed my mind from no to I don't really care but don't want to pay for it. But who cares if anyone's mind changes, it was a good discussion and I'm pretty sure none of us are legislators, so unlikely our opinions matter much in terms of legality/updating the law anyway.

I look forward to hearing about your parenting debates. Both with other parents and with your kids. Lots of opinions that also don't change a lot lol