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Quick Link Options?

B

backstrap19

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 28, 2019
Messages
446
Hello All.

I am aware of the general principal of cross loading a carabiner and the dangers involved. There is a lengthy and informational thread about it here on this forum. I have also watched vids from the How Not 2 guys where they pull a cross loaded carabiner across a corner edge, and the results are not good. However, After watching this vid from them, this appears to replicate what we do with a tether or rappel line around a tree, moreso than cross loading a biner on an edge.


My question to you all is how do you feel about biners at options to quick links? I have a petzel oxan steel biner with a 38kn major axis rating. I was considering one of the beefy fusion autolocks like aero hunter used to put on their bridges. Does anyone have any data, research, first hand experience, or even a reasonably educated opinion about this? I don't want to start any arguments or harsh discourse, but I am just looking for info and discussion on the realities of using a biner rather than a quick link. Does aluminum have a disadvantage over steel? does oval vs D shape matter? Is it a horrible idea altogether? Is it safe based on the forces we can apply to it on a fall, and there is no sharp edge for it to be pulled against? Thanks for any input!
 
If you have read those threads and watched those videos, IMO you have about all the information you need to make a personal safety decision. You probably won’t find much more “new” data, research, etc., specific to the saddle hunting application. There are more than a few that have used and continue to use carabiners vs quick links. Disadvantage of Aluminum over steel is that Aluminum holds until it doesn’t and it is likely to just snap without warning. Steel is stronger and will typically bend before it breaks.

IMO, it’s probably safe, and man it sure is appealing, but it only takes one time when it’s not safe to end up with a broken back or worse. Sooo, I stick with the quick link, because for me, the 5 seconds saved during an 6hr hunt isn’t worth risking life in a wheel chair. Everyone is so focused on speed, how quick can I get up the tree, how fast can I get down, how fast can I get around that limb. I try to focus how can I come home safe every day, so I can go again the next day. It’s just not an area where I feel that the advantage is so great that it makes it worth taking unnecessary risk. In the end it’s a personal decision and everyone gets a choice. Good Luck and Stay Safe!
 
Maybe I’m careless or stupid but I run a normal self locking aluminum biner.
Even in the smallest of trees the majority of the load on the biner is in tension along the strong direction.
A good compromise could be to run a steel biner if you are unsure.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
2Sloe offers good advice, IMO.

But if you find that you don't want to "fiddle" with a threaded quick link, check this out:


There's at least 1 YouTube video about it.

WARNING- if your rope/tether has a very tight sewn loop, it may not fit thru it.
 
I used a carabiner for a long time. I personally feel comfortable with it if it's never shock loaded. When I started one sticking I went to a quicklink. Even though I keep my slack at a minimum, I still take comfort in the extra safety factor. And the rubber washer/quicklink combo is the nicest cinching device I've tried, which doesn't work as well with a biner.
 
2Sloe said:
If you have read those threads and watched those videos, IMO you have about all the information you need to make a personal safety decision. You probably won’t find much more “new” data, research, etc., specific to the saddle hunting application. There are more than a few that have used and continue to use carabiners vs quick links. Disadvantage of Aluminum over steel is that Aluminum holds until it doesn’t and it is likely to just snap without warning. Steel is stronger and will typically bend before it breaks.

IMO, it’s probably safe, and man it sure is appealing, but it only takes one time when it’s not safe to end up with a broken back or worse. Sooo, I stick with the quick link, because for me, the 5 seconds saved during an 6hr hunt isn’t worth risking life in a wheel chair. Everyone is so focused on speed, how quick can I get up the tree, how fast can I get down, how fast can I get around that limb. I try to focus how can I come home safe every day, so I can go again the next day. It’s just not an area where I feel that the advantage is so great that it makes it worth taking unnecessary risk. In the end it’s a personal decision and everyone gets a choice. Good Luck and Stay Safe!
Click to expand...
Well said.
 
I'll make a dirty confession...... After 3 seasons of tethering in and rappelling with the quick link I swapped it out for a aluminum screw gate. I've been in skinny trees, fat trees, leaning, all different bark types, and I haven't seen a situation that I would feel a regular old biner would have been sketchy. I hadn't really given much thought into 1 biner shape being "better" than another. I just used what I already had....1 disadvantage toward the biner is there is a much higher chance of the gate closing unsupported and making the dreaded metal to metal click..quick link threading is quiet
 
Quickie while more expensive it does not suffer from side loading problems.
 
Weldabeast said:
I'll make a dirty confession...... After 3 seasons of tethering in and rappelling with the quick link I swapped it out for a aluminum screw gate. I've been in skinny trees, fat trees, leaning, all different bark types, and I haven't seen a situation that I would feel a regular old biner would have been sketchy. I hadn't really given much thought into 1 biner shape being "better" than another. I just used what I already had....1 disadvantage toward the biner is there is a much higher chance of the gate closing unsupported and making the dreaded metal to metal click..quick link threading is quiet
Click to expand...
Have you fallen on it though? I feel like thats the only scenario where we might generate enough force to side load "too much" and would hate to find out the hard way on an aluminum carabiner in that scenario by hitting the ground. Likely over-abundantly cautious, but like @2Sloe said, the time to screw a quick link closed isn't really that big of a deal, I'd rather be too safe than hurt/dead
 
I haven't fallen on the quick link either....I'm not worried about the link or the biner....the 1 thing I do think would/could be a concern is the bend in the rope is much sharper angle on the biner and a huge shock load could "cut" lesser quality rope.....

Here is what I have done that gives me total confidence.....I cut some branches for my neighbor and some of them had to be lowered down cause they were over his pumphouse and part of my fence....I climbed up and set an anchor point of 9mm htp rope. I had a loop on 1 end (surgeons loop) and I attached to the trunk with a timber hitch and used a run of the mill black diamond biner clipped into the loop of the anchor as the pulley....the branch was maybe 15-18 foot long and 8 or 10 inches in diameter. I can't be too accurate on weight estimate but waaaay more than what I weigh..I took my rappel rope and attached to the branch at where I guessed the balance point to be, over thru the biner and down the ground and attached the end to another tree with a timber hitch as my ground anchor to catch the branch....I was tethered and had my linesman belt cinched up tight. Made the under cut and as I was finishing the top cut the branch fell 5 or 6 feet and shock loaded the crap outta everything and then swung and the biner on the canopy anchor hit the trunk with a ton of force once and then a second time before the branch settled and I could climb down and we attempted to lower but it was pretty heavy and we did a controlled crash to the ground only breaking a couple fence panels....imo I could never attempt to generate even smidgen of the forces generated from that branch...the biner, ropes, and knots laughed it off like it was nothing.
 
Weldabeast said:
I haven't fallen on the quick link either....I'm not worried about the link or the biner....the 1 thing I do think would/could be a concern is the bend in the rope is much sharper angle on the biner and a huge shock load could "cut" lesser quality rope.....

Here is what I have done that gives me total confidence.....I cut some branches for my neighbor and some of them had to be lowered down cause they were over his pumphouse and part of my fence....I climbed up and set an anchor point of 9mm htp rope. I had a loop on 1 end (surgeons loop) and I attached to the trunk with a timber hitch and used a run of the mill black diamond biner clipped into the loop of the anchor as the pulley....the branch was maybe 15-18 foot long and 8 or 10 inches in diameter. I can't be too accurate on weight estimate but waaaay more than what I weigh..I took my rappel rope and attached to the branch at where I guessed the balance point to be, over thru the biner and down the ground and attached the end to another tree with a timber hitch as my ground anchor to catch the branch....I was tethered and had my linesman belt cinched up tight. Made the under cut and as I was finishing the top cut the branch fell 5 or 6 feet and shock loaded the crap outta everything and then swung and the biner on the canopy anchor hit the trunk with a ton of force once and then a second time before the branch settled and I could climb down and we attempted to lower but it was pretty heavy and we did a controlled crash to the ground only breaking a couple fence panels....imo I could never attempt to generate even smidgen of the forces generated from that branch...the biner, ropes, and knots laughed it off like it was nothing.
Click to expand...
And it didn’t surprise you in the least I bet.
 
I knew what would happen and im dumb. But i also have to be resertified in fall safety every 2 years per osha.Its crazy to me that people think the biner would just snap.there isnt one certified manufacturer that makes snaping carabiners.they are desighned to elongate or bend so you can visualy inspect them and take them out of service.plus side loading and sinching are not the same geometry.its a wives tail that is thought of as comon knowlage.like santa. you could learn alot from a dumby.good vid
 
Last edited:
backstrap19 said:
Hello All.

I am aware of the general principal of cross loading a carabiner and the dangers involved. There is a lengthy and informational thread about it here on this forum. I have also watched vids from the How Not 2 guys where they pull a cross loaded carabiner across a corner edge, and the results are not good. However, After watching this vid from them, this appears to replicate what we do with a tether or rappel line around a tree, moreso than cross loading a biner on an edge.


My question to you all is how do you feel about biners at options to quick links? I have a petzel oxan steel biner with a 38kn major axis rating. I was considering one of the beefy fusion autolocks like aero hunter used to put on their bridges. Does anyone have any data, research, first hand experience, or even a reasonably educated opinion about this? I don't want to start any arguments or harsh discourse, but I am just looking for info and discussion on the realities of using a biner rather than a quick link. Does aluminum have a disadvantage over steel? does oval vs D shape matter? Is it a horrible idea altogether? Is it safe based on the forces we can apply to it on a fall, and there is no sharp edge for it to be pulled against? Thanks for any input!
Click to expand...
Here's an option: After publishing this one, I put up a separate video on the formal break testing on the Longhorn Soft Shackle. Tied with 7mm Sterling cord, it's stronger than the carabiners we use, and of course, it bends around the trunk. I do prefer the hard toggle option. We tie the Longhorn once, and then can open and close it like a "soft carabiner " as is the nature of a soft shackle.


Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
 
Yes, broke at 1382 lbs. X axis is time. The ends were pulled apart slowly and as all slack was taken up (time 11 seconds) the force began increasing. Kept increasing until the stitches gave way. Y axis shows force in lbs. Distance is not plotted. I had predicted 1200 lbs strength with 40 stitches of 20lb thread and using Sailrite's 1.5 x thread strength per stitch calculation. So I'm happy with 1382lbs for this application.
 
So roughly 6kn. Assuming the 15kn rating is in hitch configuration rather than static pull on just the sewing but wouldnt that make you want to use it in a hitch that allows the sewn portion to not be in the primary load holding loop?
 
The Beal cord itself is 15kN rated. In my case I'm actually using it for an eye to eye Distel hitch (not prusik) for foot loops on a 2TC system. Some trees here get skinny quickly and I need to be able to adjust the foot loop height on the fly.Screenshot_20230314_123541_Gallery.jpg
Distel is much easier to adjust than Prusik.
 
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