I have been thinking about backup. To me, backup is something that will come into play if the main system fails. With a properly operating GriGri or assisted belay device, if I take my hands off the rope, I stop. With an ATC without an autoblock knot, if I take my hands off I fall to the ground. The autoblock knot is not a backup but is a necessary part of the rapel system when using an ATC.
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Rappelling 101
- Thread starter Patriot
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Vtbow
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Generally an overhand on a bite is used on the brake strand to tie off a gris gris, a slip knot as show can be used, but it needs to have a locking caribiner clipped through the loop of the slip knot to prevent it from accidentally sliding thorugh. An extra level of security is after clipping the locker through the loop of the slipknot, clipping it around the brake stand...
Vtbow
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Kind of. IF you are holding your brake hand on a gris gris away from your body(so the brake strand is perpendicular to the sharp end of the rope) and not in the proper braking position(creating a "s" shape with the rope) the camming action of the gris gris can fail to engage(especially if the rope is wet or using smaller diameter rope). The gris gris is still activated by the brake strand being in the correct position--once you have braked and the camming action is engaged, yes, you can take your hand off technically. If you didnt have your brake hand on the rope, the weight of the tail end of the rope hanging below you is generally enough to engage the camming action. An autoblock on a gris gris is klunky and unnecessary.
A "tube" style belay device works br creating the same "s" shape, or two bites in the rope. You hand holding the brake strand in the correct place creates that s shape. The autoblock simply replaces your hand. The "old school" way to go hands free on rappel without an autoblock is after coming to a stop on rappel, just wrap the brake strand around your thy 3 or so times. This creates a friction wrap and holds the brake strand in the correct position. What some people done realize, is the duty of the autoblock backup isnt to hold your weight, but to hold the brake strand of the rope in the correct position so the device operates properly.
Does that make sense?
When I am rapeling, I have 2 points of attachment to my bridge, the belay device and the toothed ascender which is attached to my bridge. I down climb with the toothed ascender a foot or so at a time pretty much the opposite of ascending. I am not trying to set any speed records, just reach the ground without injury.
Absolutely correct. My first 30 years of rappelling experience was with a figure 8, never used a "back up". I do prefer an ATC and autoblock for descending after a hunt though, it's a very efficient way to remove a platform or sticks.
It sounds like you don't really have much experience using a GriGri. If you do, have you ever had one slip?
Also, are you are saying I can use an ATC to rappel as long as I hold the tail end of the rope down and not apply any tension to the tail end of the rope? People will be killed doing it this way.
Vtbow
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gotcha. What I don't necessarily like about your setup(assuming that the picture is exactly how your rappel, letting the tail end of your rope come up through the pulley and back to the gris gris) is if your ascender wasnt there at all, the gris gris could potentially malfunction as the brake strand is parallel to the sharp end of the rope. Ok when you are using it as a process capture device for ascending, not so kosher when rappeling. You are much bettor off removing the hand ascender and pulley and using the gris gris as intended on rappel.
You should try RADS to climb. The rope still locks in the GriGri when tension is removed even coming off parallel to the other strand. It does work this way, I can assure you.
Vtbow
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I"m 100% not trying to argue with you, or point out you are doing something wrong(please dont read into any tone in the response, there isnt any i promise!). The biner on the slip knot would be a benefit for you IMO.
I actually I have an absolute ton(even if I cant spell it
. Yes, I have seen gri gri slip, not fail per-say. But need more feedback from your brake hand to engage the cams than expected. Ropes saturated with dirt and grit can wear on the aluminum cam plates over time and use and increaae the channel size they slip through ever so slightly over time, decreasing the amount of friction they create. I have also seen handles snap off.I dont really understand what you're saying here, an atc is desgned to create friction by holding the brake strand in the correct position. IF you cant create enough friction with the atc close to your belay loop(or bridge in this situation) it should be extended away from your body which allows hand position to be even more directly below the device and create a sharper bend in the rope.
I understand that the gri gri works great for RADS and does not release-its a great application. Yo-yoing is a solid way to ascend and descend in a safe, controlled manner and used a ton in high angle rescue scenarios. I was specifically talking rappelling, as that was the topic of the thread and trying to point out that the rest of the gear really wasnt necessary to "rappel" I"m glad your system works for you and you feel safe using it. There are literally 100's of ways to do things and combine techniques and hardware, that is why I generally stay out of these conversations.
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The carabiner through the loop matters. A lot.
The specific failure mode that is immediately apparent would be if you were relying on that knot to hold you, and the tail end were to snag on something, or say a falling branch snagged in it. It could untie.
@Vtbow , Yes. I understand. I had to change the wording in my posts several times to try to keep it on rapelling. My second tether in the tree, which I was going to mention, does not address rapelling.
I probably should tie off the tail while descending, to remove my platform. The toothed ascender may have me covered on this.
I probably should tie off the tail while descending, to remove my platform. The toothed ascender may have me covered on this.
I wouldn't rely on that knot to hold me but as a backup, maybe. Lately, I have been doing this, winding the rope back and forth through the carabiners. It may not be absolutely safe but I have a second independent tether. I don't have a second independent bridge, yet.
Don't do this without accepting all risk. Climbing trees can be dangerous, falling even more so.
Don't take this wrong, I am not knocking your setup, it works for you, so all good, but that is a pic I would absolutely never share with someone new to saddles. That would keep them in a Summit.
LOL. I kinda thought the same thing when I saw. There are ropes and straps going all over the place. Lots of colors as well.
No offense taken
I have the second tether anyway in case I want to move higher in the tree so I use it as a backup. Do you think people hunting from a Summit would think this is too complicated? I only have the setup that @JKline shows in his video with the addition of a sling to make the Petzl ascender life support. I am not sure how to make it simpler.
I guess I am doing a poor job of selling SRT / RADS. I will simplify for the next photo op.
If I removed all those rope wraps through the carabiner I would feel less safe just relying on the Safeguard to hold me with no backup on the tail.
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What do you think a backup is?! A backup is there to hold you when you need it most!
I shouldn't need it but it would hold me.
I understand if everything failed I would hit the ground. I will accept that risk.
I really don't want to beat a dead horse, but you just said(regarding the same knot!):
The way I see it it's one or the other.
His pics definitely caused me to wonder if this was even doable for me. But once I familiarized myself with all the hardware, I realized his setup isn’t so scary, or as complicated as it looks.
Apparently, nits were made to be picked. My multiple backups are not enough for you?
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