Rope retrieval after rappel- prussic problem

[mattsteg]

So....after all that.....Hunt from a prussic, rappel - ATC with an Autoblock seems like the safest, lightest, quietest, most afforable(non issue with life on the line I guess) Just gotta take the prussic of before descent?

I thought you wanted panic locking? And transitioning from one support to another is always a "risky" process. So is tying and trusting a fresh knot/hitch (e.g. that prusik).

What safety are you chasing and what risks are you identifying and seeking to mitigate?

 

[Jokerswild]

Isnt the autoblock- a form of panic locking by its nature

I agree - switching devices is a Potential snafu.. so is device failure...so is anti panic mode.

Just thinking of the system that has the least risk. bordeline bomb proof. It seems to me that going from the prussic under tension, transitioning tension TO the ATC/backup is the most bomb proof. Thus my original question about rope retrieval with the prussic still there

 

[Jokerswild]

I meant lack of anti-panic mode

 

[bj139]

Isnt the autoblock- a form of panic locking by its nature

I agree - switching devices is a Potential snafu.. so is device failure...so is anti panic mode.

Just thinking of the system that has the least risk. bordeline bomb proof. It seems to me that going from the prussic under tension, transitioning tension TO the ATC/backup is the most bomb proof. Thus my original question about rope retrieval with the prussic still there

Carry another Prusik loop and remove the top one before you descend seems to be the best to what you are thinking. Having another Prusik loop ready to go is also a good backup to carry. You can climb a rope with 2 Prusik loops and a few slings and carabiners if necessary.

 

[mattsteg]

Isnt the autoblock- a form of panic locking by its nature

Nope. You grab it you're on an express ride to the ground. Just like a safeguard or any other similar device.

You let it go you stop, just like a safeguard or other similar device.

Just thinking of the system that has the least risk. bordeline bomb proof. It seems to me that going from the prussic under tension, transitioning tension TO the ATC/backup is the most bomb proof. Thus my original question about rope retrieval with the prussic still there

I don't think that that's necessarily unsafe nor bombproof.

 

[kenn1320]

Red beard used to use an atc and autoblock. He put the atc in the rappel line and then loaded the line with his weight. This reduces error in the dark after hunting and fatigue. However he convinced me his new method of safeguard was better, and thats the method I use. Fearing it might break because its mechanical is a bit over blown. Far more moving parts in your cars braking system and nobody I know of has rigged a boat anchor on their car as a backup device. I suppose you could panic with the lever, but you would also have to panic and let go of the feed rope. I don't see me holding harder with 1 hand and letting go with the other in a panic situation.

 

[Jokerswild]

Nope. You grab it you're on an express ride to the ground

Not if you are controlling the rope as well with your other hand, as you should. Thats the whole point of the autoblck right? Safety device for the ATC.

Theres always risk. I get it. But theres always a "Best Practice" way of doing things as well.

 

[Jokerswild]

Using an Auto Block for Rappelling - Bing video

 

[Jrybicki]

Im opposed to the whole safeguard, ropeman, gri-gri thing. Just too many moving parts to fail. Too much chance of a panic fall. Too much chance of hitting a lever or release by accident. So Im looking at hunting from a prussic. Attaching an atc/auto-block, and rappeling down after unloading tension on the hunting prussic. Thus- its still up there in the way...

I hadnt thought of the tether prussic AS the Autoblock. Probabaly kind stiff? Also, wouldnt one be kinda in a bad situation while moving the prussic down...not clipped in???? Linemans Belt or backup tether i suppose?

There's a couple ways of doing this with an atc/figure 8 and an autoblock. Ill describe my setup first though its more moving parts than what you're looking for. At hunting height I'm hanging from my tether on a prussic, when its time to come down I pull out my rappel line with delta link put it around the tree just under tether then pull out my atc and additional carabiner set up and hook it to bridge. Weight is still currently on tether. I then pull out a double eye trc and additional carabiner and tie a schwabish hitch then clip that to my right linemans loop/bridge loop depending on saddle. Then slide that up until its pulling down tension on the atc. Once that is weighted I slowly release and slide my prussic down as I transfer weight to my rappel line. Once I'm confident the rappel line is secure and all weight has been transferred I disconnect from the tether and remove it from the tree. I then use my right/brake hand to squeeze the schwabish as I rappel.
Since it sounds like you want to use the rappel line as your tether... I don't for rain/snow/ice reasons on my rappel line. You have two options stay connected to your prussic and add atc and autoblock below in a similar fashion to what I described above then loosen prussic and disconnect and rappel down. Or ditch the prussic for schwabish/kleimheist/distel your preference with longer legs and you'll add the atc below it with another carabiner. Now your safety is above the atc (configuration most climbers use) and you'll use your non braking hand to release tension as you rappel. If that doesn't make sense let me know and I can throw together a quick video explaining it.

 

[neonomad]

I’ve tried to video myself transitioning and without some sort of GoPro I haven’t been able to!

Basically, once I decide to go down I clean all my stuff up and put it away. Set my linesman’s belt. Pull slack, tie an overhand knot in a bight, after I slide the friction hitch down and above the hitch. Then I clip that to my bridge. Unclip friction hitch. Slide further. I use a figure 8, put it in the system and clip my friction hitch to a Lineman’s loop. Unclip overhand knot and untie. Weight test the system and then remove lineman’s belt. And away we go. This takes me all of 30 second.

I do have to carry an extra carabiner for this method but it’s so easy.

Lately I’ve been using the lifeguard. (Yes I said LIFEGUARD) and I’ve really liked it a lot. But I rappelled this way for the last two years.


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Even after practicing, somehow the first time in the field I realized I was a biner short, had to do some head scratching for a minute.

 

[bj139]

Even after practicing, somehow the first time in the field I realized I was a biner short, had to do some head scratching for a minute.

I had a video I posted and people gave me a razzing for 9 carabiners in use and reserved hanging from my saddle. I wasn't short.

 

[neonomad]

I’m gonna prophesy here.

You’ll wind up using the prussik as an autoblock. Because it works better, as you need to stop on the way down to get whatever platform and climbing method out of the tree.

But the prussik will hold too well in the 3 wrap configuration. So you’ll try a 2 wrap. And that will be better but nothing great.

So you’ll come looking for the right knot.

And behold; the schwebisch hitch.

@bj139 you’re my witness.


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So far - maybe half dozen hangs and rappels - me and this hitch are getting along great. I tether with it, with an alpine butterfly tied below it. Then push it to a lineman’s loop or hook to my redundant RC harness and install a figure eight. Excellent control coming down thus far, TRC on 8mm RescTech.

 

[neonomad]

I had a video I posted and people gave me a razzing for 9 carabiners in use and reserved hanging from my saddle. I wasn't short.

Ha, off the top of my head I can’t tell you how many carabiners my process requires, but it’s less than 9!

 

[mattsteg]

Nope. You grab it you're on an express ride to the ground

Not if you are controlling the rope as well with your other hand, as you should. Thats the whole point of the autoblck right? Safety device for the ATC.

Theres always risk. I get it. But theres always a "Best Practice" way of doing things as well.

What do you think you're supposed to do with the safeguard as well? It's the same exact situation!

I'm much more inclined to believe that the best practice from a safety perspective involves a safeguard or similar device, that you can keep connected and loaded 100% of the time. You linking videos to show us things that we already know does not really make your point, whatever it is.

 

[gwhalin]

Using rope that is in spec for the belay device, I don't see any world where it is any more dangerous than using a traditional ATC or Figure 8. If you really want to back up the belay device with a friction hitch like an autoblock then do so. Sure, hanging from a belay device without a lock (Petzl Rig or Id for example) when hanging a platform is potentially dangerous as you are likely hands free so if something catches on the release, you are headed down, but that is easily controlled for by tying in a quick stopper know below the device.

 

[BTaylor]

So....after all that.....Hunt from a prussic, rappel - ATC with an Autoblock seems like the safest, lightest, quietest, most afforable(non issue with life on the line I guess) Just gotta take the prussic of before descent?

This is not advice, just they way I am doing what you are talking about. I hunt out of a rock climbing harness and fleece saddle for now. I have 2 prussiks on my tether/rappel rope. the bottom one is clipped into my belay loop on the harness and I clip the saddle into the other once at hunting height. When it is time to get down. I attach my lineman's for support, unclip the saddle and remove, lower my bottom prussik from the belay loop to leg loop for autoblock, attach ATC to belay loop, loosen the linemans to weight everything then remove linemans. I then remove platform and my stick. The prussik that my saddle attachment is between the ATC and prussik for autoblock. I loosen it and slide down so I can control it with my thumb and index finger and I control the autoblock prussik with ring finger and pinky. I hold tension on rappel line with my left hand under the ATC to make the tension adjustments to the prussiks and then walk down the tree. I am putting slack in the system when transitioning to rappel but that is only done while supported with the lineman's. Again not advice just how I use a system like you were describing. Dont forget to clip your pull down line LOL.

 

[Jokerswild]

Using rope that is in spec for the belay device, I don't see any world where it is any more dangerous than using a traditional ATC or Figure 8. If you really want to back up the belay device with a friction hitch like an autoblock then do so. Sure, hanging from a belay device without a lock (Petzl Rig or Id for example) when hanging a platform is potentially dangerous as you are likely hands free so if something catches on the release, you are headed down, but that is easily controlled for by tying in a quick stopper know below the device.

This!
Thats my number 1 fear. something catching on that lever while at hunt mode.

 

[gwhalin]

This!
Thats my number 1 fear. something catching on that lever while at hunt mode.

Same, this is why I always tie an alpine butterfly right below the grigri and clip it into my carabiner when I am hanging and removing my platform (or any time I need to go hands free).

 

[Vtbow]

Same, this is why I always tie an alpine butterfly right below the grigri and clip it into my carabiner when I am hanging and removing my platform (or any time I need to go hands free).

Why do I always have to be the party pooper...

I think the alpine butterfly on the brake stand and clipping it to yourself is what at @ThereWillBeSpuds does as well, but that is really not a good practice and can create an additional problem in itself. What would you do if your grigri does slip and now your alpine butterfly is weighted and pulled onto the top of the belay device and you need to descend? There is a very specific way to do this using a mule hitch that holds the brake strand in the brake position, and is releasable under weight. Everyone really needs to read or look at their grigri manual or tech tips on the petzl site...

 

[gwhalin]

Why do I always have to be the party pooper...

I think the alpine butterfly on the brake stand and clipping it to yourself is what at @ThereWillBeSpuds does as well, but that is really not a good practice and can create an additional problem in itself. What would you do if your grigri does slip and now your alpine butterfly is weighted and pulled onto the top of the belay device and you need to descend? There is a very specific way to do this using a mule hitch that holds the brake strand in the brake position, and is releasable under weight. Everyone really needs to read or look at their grigri manual or tech tips on the petzl site...

Some people just like being the party pooper?

If this happens, I will hang patiently and calmly because I didn't die, pull out my hand ascender and clip back on the rope, pull myself up a few feet and then move on without being too upset about things (other than wondering why my grigri slipped). And yes I have read the grigri manual. The grigri is for belay, and their suggestion makes more sense when you thinking about using for a belay situation. My approach works just fine for RADS/SRT.