• The SH Membership has gone live. Only SH Members have access to post in the classifieds. All members can view the classifieds. Starting in 2020 only SH Members will be admitted to the annual hunting contest. Current members will need to follow these steps to upgrade: 1. Click on your username 2. Click on Account upgrades 3. Choose SH Member and purchase.
  • We've been working hard the past few weeks to come up with some big changes to our vendor policies to meet the changing needs of our community. Please see the new vendor rules here: Vendor Access Area Rules

Ropeman Safety

mattsteg said:
The risk there is that they may use it one way (keeping its limits in mind), and then you turn arou d and use it "because these experts do".

He is using the ropeman ascender...for ascending. There's never slack in the line. That's not how we use them (unless you're doing srt/drt/etc with them).

The key consideration in this case - is that he does not ever have slack in his system.

If you use a platform and "pivot" for weakside shots, you have slack in your system. Same for some climbing methods. The specific case where the ropeman 1 does not perform well is in those situations.

Again - it's a fine tool, but when you're using life-support gear In an off-label manner you should have a better rationale than "these other guys use the device as designed".
Click to expand...
you dont think they dont take a short fall ( which is what we're looking at) into account? They could "mis-clip", an anchor could give, a rope could slip). I'm no expert but I'm thinking the chances of a mishap in a canyon/crevasse rescue are exponentially higher. Plus if you build in a redundancy like a prusik you're good either way. For me it boiled down to not feeling safe at all with just a prusik. I needed to use both my hands to release it for adjustment and there was too much margin of error imo with no hands and weight shifting. It all boils down to what each individual feels comfy with and imm 100% my comfy with my RM. But hey, that's me.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
 
PaTrout1 said:
you dont think they dont take a short fall ( which is what we're looking at) into account? They could "mis-clip", an anchor could give, a rope could slip). I'm no expert but I'm thinking the chances of a mishap in a canyon/crevasse rescue are exponentially higher. Plus if you build in a redundancy like a prusik you're good either way. For me it boiled down to not feeling safe at all with just a prusik. I needed to use both my hands to release it for adjustment and there was too much margin of error imo with no hands and weight shifting. It all boils down to what each individual feels comfy with and imm 100% my comfy with my RM. But hey, that's me.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
To nitpick a bit - the specific "cut the rope" failure mode of the ropeman 1 is a concern in that it can take out your backup(whether by cutting it off, or cutting the rope and then having the backoff slip off the end before it stops you). So is the specific use case of having a very short tether, standing up on a pivot style platform to shoot, and slipping or having a platform failure.

Almost certainly nothing will happen and in most situations you are plenty safe. But there are a few things that some saddle hunters do routinely that can be stealthy-dangerous.
 
How far would you have to fall to generate enough force to cut 10mm rope with a Ropeman? Without doing the math and just a hillbilly guess... alot farther them my 5 foot tether would ever allow. I'm good with a stopper knot at the end of my tether.
 
Swingin' Free said:
How far would you have to fall to generate enough force to cut 10mm rope with a Ropeman? Without doing the math and just a hillbilly guess... alot farther them my 5 foot tether would ever allow. I'm good with a stopper knot at the end of my tether.
Click to expand...
Hillbilly math ain't right.
Leaving aside however much you bend which may painfully give you some leeway...
A couple of ft. Or less.

Fall Factor Calculator

how to fall
ferforge.tripod.com
 
5 foot fall, 200 lbs generates approx. 2460 ft/lbs. Seems well below all my equipment ratings. Works for me.
I'll have to measure my tether next time up I think 5ft is a little long ...
 
Swingin' Free said:
5 foot fall, 200 lbs generates approx. 2460 ft/lbs. Seems well below all my equipment ratings. Works for me.
I'll have to measure my tether next time up I think 5ft is a little long ...
Click to expand...
In tests with multiple different 10.5-11mm ropes, the ropeman consistently cut them at around 4 kN. 900 pounds. As low as 3.5 kN (<800 pounds)

So no, you aren't well below your equipment ratings. You're as much as 3x beyond the point where your rope would potentially be severed.
 
Swingin' Free said:
Would I be better off using my Maderock Safeguard?
Click to expand...
I can post this example of a dynamic loading of the safeguard on an 8mm rope (out of spec for climbing use per madrock) (the same calculator puts this at 16kn)

I won't speak to whether it's endorsed, safer, etc. I don't know how the ergonomics work for you (the nut at the end and all that), how it engages your rope, etc. I've considered trying mine as a tether, but prefer a tended distel so haven't bothered to this point.
 
mattsteg said:
1. And to be specific - to my knowledge neither is tested/rated by wild country for dynamic loading/fall protection. we just know the ropeman1 is particularly bad.
Click to expand...
That's surprising about the 1 because I have the 2 and the teeth seem way more aggressive than what the pics of the 1 look.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
 
PaTrout1 said:
That's surprising about the 1 because I have the 2 and the teeth seem way more aggressive than what the pics of the 1 look.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
I'm not making any claims that the 2 is any better. Similar toothed ascenders cut the sheath of the same ropes in dynamic load tests at maybe 5kn. The ropeman2 didn't exist to be tested.
 
mattsteg said:
I'm not making any claims that the 2 is any better. Similar toothed ascenders cut the sheath of the same ropes in dynamic load tests at maybe 5kn. The ropeman2 didn't exist to be tested.
Click to expand...
Exactly. Everyone should remember, they are ASCENDERS, NOT FALL ARREST DEVICES! Manufatureres really have no reason to test or advertise the testing for them for dynamic load because it is not what they are designed for.
 
Vtbow said:
Exactly. Everyone should remember, they are ASCENDERS, NOT FALL ARREST DEVICES! Manufatureres really have no reason to test or advertise the testing for them for dynamic load because it is not what they are designed for.
Click to expand...
Yup - I find it useful to hunt around for tests by people misusing gear to have an idea of what to expect and better understand the risks...but a manufacturer has nothing but downside to such tests.

And everyone: dynamic loads from falls ramp up quite rapidly. Unless you put something like a ripstop in your system it takes very little slack to put a lot of load on your gear.
 
mattsteg said:
Yup - I find it useful to hunt around for tests by people misusing gear to have an idea of what to expect and better understand the risks...but a manufacturer has nothing but downside to such tests.

And everyone: dynamic loads from falls ramp up quite rapidly. Unless you put something like a ripstop in your system it takes very little slack to put a lot of load on your gear.
Click to expand...
Is it possible to combine a ripstop with an ascender like the RM? If so, what would that entail, another biner?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top