Thoughts on getting broadheads insanely sharp?

[Jmarzey]

I cant lie, this summer I fell into the heavy arrow, fixed head fad. After tinkering with it all summer long, and never seeing the light, I went back to a well balanced arrow with a fixed 3 blade broadhead. Now, I have killed two deer thus far with this set up and I could not be happier. One was a quartering away doe at 30, zipped through her and stuck 6 inches in the dirt. The second was last night, and it was another doe at 20 yards. Well I left my range finder in the truck, so I shot the deer a touch high. The arrow blew through the bottom of the spine and hit a rock on the ground which sent sparks flying everywhere (I had no clue what had happened). This dulled my G5 Montec M3 pretty good.

Now I catch myself sitting here trying to get this broadhead sharp enough to cut leather, because once again, I been watching too much youtube. I cleaned the edges up to make them even again, but for some reason these heads will NOT get as sharp as others I have shot in the past. So, I'm sitting here getting irritated, and it dawned on me that the dang thing wasn't that sharp out of the pack. With the tip of these heads being so sharp, I honestly cant see myself having any issues with the cutting surface not doing damage as it flies through vitals at 285 FPS.

Anybody else seem to get caught up in the latest and greatest things that we consume on the You Tube? I fight it all the time. Its crazy that two years ago I was killing deer with expandables, in a big heavy lock on lol. Now it makes me cringe

 

[NATHAN]

I THINK that due to the angle built into a three blade, that we will never be able to get them ridiculously sharp. But they don't have to be to cut through. I feel pretty good about them with regular sharpening and honing. How do you like the M3 compared to Montec? Nathan

 

[Jmarzey]

I THINK that due to the angle built into a three blade, that we will never be able to get them ridiculously sharp. But they don't have to be to cut through. I feel pretty good about them with regular sharpening and honing. How do you like the M3 compared to Montec? Nathan

Other than not getting real sharp i like them. They fly straight and don’t whistle lol. They keep killing so I’m gonna keep on slinging them


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[Chimney7]

I cant say as I've gotten caught up in anything except archery hunting. Archery is new to me, this is my first year. I've killed two deer so far with my bow, using montec g5s, both of them dropped about 60 yards. I did sharpen the broadheads out of the box, two deer, solid pass through twice. Cleaned them both up and both of the broadheads I used to kill deer are taking hair off my hand. Good enough for me. If it ain't broke.... well you know the saying.

 

[Hunter260]

I can’t get my montecs sharp either. With other 2 blade heads I can get them to pop hairs but the montecs just won’t do it. I agree and think it’s the angle. I recently heard some stuff about efficiency of 2 blade vs 3 blade broadheads and it has me questioning if 3 blades are worth shooting. I’ve never had a chance at one with the 3 blade

 

[NATHAN]

I will likely stick with them. I am set up to keep them sharp, I have plenty of them and they have served me well. I have to keep my wife and 3 daughters going as well, so something that is tough and reusable is a must. I may go to the M3 next time I need to replenish.

 

[kyler1945]

I stick to a head that I can remove the blades, or that allows me to sharpen one blade at a time. This allows me to use a flat surface and a jig to maintain bevel. 220(for really bad edges)/400/600/800/1500/buffing compound on cardboard will handle any head I’ve seen so far.

I also keep 8-10 heads in rotation. I ain’t sharpening them on the spot. I’ll shoot 3-4 before I set up to sharpen. On my time when it’s convenient.

 

[Hunter260]

I’m also in the camp of the broadhead doesn’t make the blood trail, and as long as it goes through that’s all you can ask for. Here’s why I think that. My buddy shot this doe with a 2 blade bear razor head that was hair popping sharp. You can see the hit and that there was absolutely no blood from this hole or the one on the other side. She did however bleed well from her nose/mouth. We watched her fall so blood trail was a bonus.

I was shooting a 2 blade steelforce which is about the same size and shape as his bear head. Mine was also razor sharp. I hit my buck in nearly the exact same spot as he hit his doe, but mine was quartering to a little.

We don’t think the deer bled at all from this side, but where the broadhead came out (about 6 inches in front of the diaphragm) there was great bleeding. This lead to a blood trail that was easy enough to follow.
My buck didn’t bleed at all from his nose/mouth even though both deer had both lungs hit and no heart or liver or other organs (we’re both vet students and pretty confident in our autopsies).
I don’t really know what the point of this is or how valuable his data is, other than I don’t think you can really count on a good or bad blood trail based on broadhead. And a small 2 blade head can deliver a blood trail. I think there’s a ton of luck involved in recovering a deer hit with an arrow. Both of our deer went less than 75 yards, which is expected from a good double lung hit. Neither of them ran off like a bat out of hell either, they kind of just trotted out of sight

 

[kyler1945]

I’m also in the camp of the broadhead doesn’t make the blood trail, and as long as it goes through that’s all you can ask for. Here’s why I think that. My buddy shot this doe with a 2 blade bear razor head that was hair popping sharp. You can see the hit and that there was absolutely no blood from this hole or the one on the other side. She did however bleed well from her nose/mouth. We watched her fall so blood trail was a bonus.
View attachment 38132
I was shooting a 2 blade steelforce which is about the same size and shape as his bear head. Mine was also razor sharp. I hit my buck in nearly the exact same spot as he hit his doe, but mine was quartering to a little.
View attachment 38133
We don’t think the deer bled at all from this side, but where the broadhead came out (about 6 inches in front of the diaphragm) there was great bleeding. This lead to a blood trail that was easy enough to follow.
View attachment 38134My buck didn’t bleed at all from his nose/mouth even though both deer had both lungs hit and no heart or liver or other organs (we’re both vet students and pretty confident in our autopsies).
I don’t really know what the point of this is or how valuable his data is, other than I don’t think you can really count on a good or bad blood trail based on broadhead. And a small 2 blade head can deliver a blood trail. I think there’s a ton of luck involved in recovering a deer hit with an arrow. Both of our deer went less than 75 yards, which is expected from a good double lung hit. Neither of them ran off like a bat out of hell either, they kind of just trotted out of sight

The only way to get "good blood trails" is blood pressure and volume. The only way to get good blood pressure and volume is to sever major plumbing. Folks think that good blood trails with large wide cut expandables result from the wide cut itself through vitals. This isn't true. They result in MORE good blood trails than smaller heads because they increase ODDS you hit major plumbing. This is confirmed by many, many millions of good blood trails from small fixed heads, and non existent blood trails from expandables.

You're exactly right that cutting diameter doesn't cause good blood trails, it merely correlates. What I would be curious of, with your veterinarian background, if you can confirm how well deer bleed with a pierced heart. One of my thoughts there is if you break the suction or discharge chamber of the heart, and it can't build pressure, it won't pump a good blood trail. Obviously, the deer will not go far if it can't generate blood pressure. But wondering about the ability of the heart to pump it out of the cavity in a situation like that.

 

[Weldabeast]

When u are cut with something sharp vs something dull the cut with the sharp blade will bleed more and longer....a sharp blade will cut down to the micro capillaries vs a dull blade push them out the way...think of the razor cut on ur face that bleeds forever...dull cut allows the blood to clot quicker

 

[Hunter260]

The only way to get "good blood trails" is blood pressure and volume. The only way to get good blood pressure and volume is to sever major plumbing. Folks think that good blood trails with large wide cut expandables result from the wide cut itself through vitals. This isn't true. They result in MORE good blood trails than smaller heads because they increase ODDS you hit major plumbing. This is confirmed by many, many millions of good blood trails from small fixed heads, and non existent blood trails from expandables.

You're exactly right that cutting diameter doesn't cause good blood trails, it merely correlates. What I would be curious of, with your veterinarian background, if you can confirm how well deer bleed with a pierced heart. One of my thoughts there is if you break the suction or discharge chamber of the heart, and it can't build pressure, it won't pump a good blood trail. Obviously, the deer will not go far if it can't generate blood pressure. But wondering about the ability of the heart to pump it out of the cavity in a situation like that.

Well, like everything else, it depends. There’s 4 chambers in the heart and each is different. Say you hit the right atrium, which is at 0 pressure Most of the time. That won’t cause a direct change in blood pressure, only indirect as blood is lost. But sever the left ventricle which can reach pressures near 200 mmHg and you can basically stop the pump.

I’m of the opinion that a heart shot probably won’t drastically affect blood pressure compared to another shot. This is because of the formula we use to determine pressure. MAP = CO x TPR.
MAP: mean arterial pressure
CO: cardiac output, which is equal to heart rate times stroke volume of each heart pump
TPR: total peripheral resistance. This is basically how easy or hard it is to pump blood. A small vessel has a higher TPR than a big vessel. This number is an average of the size of every blood vessel in the entire body, and changes as vessels contract and dilate.

The body is amazing at compensation in order to maintain an appropriate MAP. When you sever arteries and veins the TPR goes way down because there’s big holes in the vessels. To compensate the CO goes way up as heart rate and stroke volume increase. This is good for us because hearts pumping hard squirt blood farther. Very rapidly after injury, vessels start to contract in order increase TPR and to further increase MAP. This (along with the clotting cascade) is bad for us, and constricted vessels leak less blood than dilated ones.

I try to do a decently thorough autopsy on every deer I shoot, and I’ve hit 2 in the heart with my bow. I hit one with a schwacker directly in the right ventricle. I did NOT get a pass through. There wasn’t a drop of blood anywhere to be found, and the deer fell over ~75 yards away.

The second was a doe that I shot from the ground. She was basically straight on to me and I shot her right between the shoulders with a 2 blade steelforce. This shot didn’t hit the heart, but cut several of the large vessels coming from the heart, like the left subclavian and pulmonary arteries. The arrow did pass through, exiting out her back leg behind the femur. The blood trail on her was insane. Like a red carpet and she went down about 50 yards away.

Idk what to say other then I think it’s a ton of luck involved and a pass through is top priority

 

[kyler1945]

Well, like everything else, it depends. There’s 4 chambers in the heart and each is different. Say you hit the right atrium, which is at 0 pressure Most of the time. That won’t cause a direct change in blood pressure, only indirect as blood is lost. But sever the left ventricle which can reach pressures near 200 mmHg and you can basically stop the pump.

I’m of the opinion that a heart shot probably won’t drastically affect blood pressure compared to another shot. This is because of the formula we use to determine pressure. MAP = CO x TPR.
MAP: mean arterial pressure
CO: cardiac output, which is equal to heart rate times stroke volume of each heart pump
TPR: total peripheral resistance. This is basically how easy or hard it is to pump blood. A small vessel has a higher TPR than a big vessel. This number is an average of the size of every blood vessel in the entire body, and changes as vessels contract and dilate.

The body is amazing at compensation in order to maintain an appropriate MAP. When you sever arteries and veins the TPR goes way down because there’s big holes in the vessels. To compensate the CO goes way up as heart rate and stroke volume increase. This is good for us because hearts pumping hard squirt blood farther. Very rapidly after injury, vessels start to contract in order increase TPR and to further increase MAP. This (along with the clotting cascade) is bad for us, and constricted vessels leak less blood than dilated ones.

I try to do a decently thorough autopsy on every deer I shoot, and I’ve hit 2 in the heart with my bow. I hit one with a schwacker directly in the right ventricle. I did NOT get a pass through. There wasn’t a drop of blood anywhere to be found, and the deer fell over ~75 yards away.

The second was a doe that I shot from the ground. She was basically straight on to me and I shot her right between the shoulders with a 2 blade steelforce. This shot didn’t hit the heart, but cut several of the large vessels coming from the heart, like the left subclavian and pulmonary arteries. The arrow did pass through, exiting out her back leg behind the femur. The blood trail on her was insane. Like a red carpet and she went down about 50 yards away.

Idk what to say other then I think it’s a ton of luck involved and a pass through is top priority

post of the year for me! Science! Thanks for the reply. Feel free to keep dropping knowledge!

 

[Still Kicking]

I used to always try to shoot the heart but noticed a lot of the deer didn't bleed that well and went really far sometimes. One in particular was a heart shot 11 point with a 12ga. Remington copper solid that went 225 yards and only a few freckles of blood 25 or 30 yards apart. For the last 25 years or so I try for the double lung and high (mid body) well behind the shoulder. Pass through with a blood trail you can see 20 yards ahead. (3 blade Muzzy One 125 grain)

 

[ShooterMike]

Well, like everything else, it depends. There’s 4 chambers in the heart and each is different. Say you hit the right atrium, which is at 0 pressure Most of the time. That won’t cause a direct change in blood pressure, only indirect as blood is lost. But sever the left ventricle which can reach pressures near 200 mmHg and you can basically stop the pump.

I’m of the opinion that a heart shot probably won’t drastically affect blood pressure compared to another shot. This is because of the formula we use to determine pressure. MAP = CO x TPR.
MAP: mean arterial pressure
CO: cardiac output, which is equal to heart rate times stroke volume of each heart pump
TPR: total peripheral resistance. This is basically how easy or hard it is to pump blood. A small vessel has a higher TPR than a big vessel. This number is an average of the size of every blood vessel in the entire body, and changes as vessels contract and dilate.

The body is amazing at compensation in order to maintain an appropriate MAP. When you sever arteries and veins the TPR goes way down because there’s big holes in the vessels. To compensate the CO goes way up as heart rate and stroke volume increase. This is good for us because hearts pumping hard squirt blood farther. Very rapidly after injury, vessels start to contract in order increase TPR and to further increase MAP. This (along with the clotting cascade) is bad for us, and constricted vessels leak less blood than dilated ones.

I try to do a decently thorough autopsy on every deer I shoot, and I’ve hit 2 in the heart with my bow. I hit one with a schwacker directly in the right ventricle. I did NOT get a pass through. There wasn’t a drop of blood anywhere to be found, and the deer fell over ~75 yards away.

The second was a doe that I shot from the ground. She was basically straight on to me and I shot her right between the shoulders with a 2 blade steelforce. This shot didn’t hit the heart, but cut several of the large vessels coming from the heart, like the left subclavian and pulmonary arteries. The arrow did pass through, exiting out her back leg behind the femur. The blood trail on her was insane. Like a red carpet and she went down about 50 yards away.

Idk what to say other then I think it’s a ton of luck involved and a pass through is top priority

work in trauma? Flight Medic, here.

 

[kongzilla]

Three blades from what ive seen are kinda tricky and the best way ive seen to sharpen them would be with a wet stone. I got a stay sharp jig for my Black hornet broad heads and that gets them crazy sharp. It all for me comes down to consistency in your stride as you sharpen.

 

[kenn1320]

I've not been happy with cut on contact 2 blades, but I've been spoiled by big mechanical heads.

 

[Hunter260]

I've not been happy with cut on contact 2 blades, but I've been spoiled by big mechanical heads.

What are your experiences with each? How many deer have you killed with them?

 

[Sniper4hire]

You want sharp broadheads, DON'T LET ME sharpen them.

 

[woodsdog2]

I used to always try to shoot the heart but noticed a lot of the deer didn't bleed that well and went really far sometimes. One in particular was a heart shot 11 point with a 12ga. Remington copper solid that went 225 yards and only a few freckles of blood 25 or 30 yards apart. For the last 25 years or so I try for the double lung and high (mid body) well behind the shoulder. Pass through with a blood trail you can see 20 yards ahead. (3 blade Muzzy One 125 grain)

I shot two bucks with the copper solids several years ago and they suck at expansion in my opinion. I recovered both but the damage was not even close compared to the much heavier and more malleable lead "foster style" slugs out of my smoothbores.

 

[woodsdog2]

I went heavy arrow, fixed coc VPA 3 blade 150's this year at 1 1/8" diameter and they are precisely machined, sharpen very easily with a flat file or stone and are super tough. I think a 3 blade provides a better blood trail as well.