Tree Stand Harness

[Dope on a Rope]

It’s already happening to an extent. There are cheap knock offs on Amazon, new Chinese lines from more established saddle companies, Hawk and XOP are now making saddles that cost significantly less. And we’ve lost a couple of the quality companies already and only one of the “big 5 companies” that I know of, got one of the saddle designers that I respect.
I can tell you this, if it weren’t for AJ and I speaking at length and also for his work with Jerry (another guy I respect immensely) I do not think my saddle would ever be available again. I would be much happier just designing stuff for some other company to offer. They carry the costs and time associated with testing, and materials, labor and insurance. I get to use stuff that I believe in and have my time back for family, fishing and hunting… it’s a win win for me

Believe me, I get it

 

[tailgunner]

Correct. But imitation is not always the sincerest form of flattery. If you don’t understand why something has a certain shape, what material is best in what application, or why it is reinforced in certain areas, then you create a thing that looks similar to something else, but doesn’t perform similarly. In that instance DIY is creating an unsafe situation. While you don’t want to fall ever, lineman loops can and have become a portion of fall arrest while climbing. Because of this, the loops need to be attached to the life safety portions of the saddle. In my opinion, It’s extremely important to understand these things with life safety. A guy on Facebook is selling “saddles” he makes for $150 or less. His lineman loops are webbing sewn directly to cordura or whatever fabric he is using. The loops have no attachment to the main chassis of the saddle, nor the waist belt. Cordura rips around 350 to 500 lbs depending on the type and denier. I assume his machine isn’t capable of going through the multiplie layers of webbing or perhaps he just doesn’t understand what he’s making. If I am not mistaken, A certain company was doing the same when they started out back in 2018. After they did some real testing, they completely changed how the lineman loops were on the saddle… do you think that was coincidental or do you think they discovered that the lineman loops strength, wasn’t sufficient without attaching them either to the safety belt or to the chassis? I am willing to bet it’s the latter. So while I myself am a DIY guy and love seeing guys make their own stuff (yes even ol @tailgunner lol) I also want to see people get home safely because whether we like it or not, potential for shock loading or dynamic events will always be a part of our sport. We can minimize opportunities and maximize our safe practices but we can never fully remove the danger. For that reason, it’s important to have well built and safe gear.

Hey.thanks man...i apreciate it

 

[tailgunner]

trading stick stories

Ha hahhh...look in my eyes...Had me binging on some pac today.....and raineirs

 

[cedar paul]

Back in my childhood I remember riding in cars with no seat belts, no bike helmets and hunting from trees was not popular. Risk assessment, fall force calculations and inexperienced ( or unknowingly) use of sketchy techniques and materials is a by product of innovation. Hopefully we all learn from those in the know and then innovate with our own ideas. Even at 67 I still enjoy things that have risk involved firearm training, tree climbing, white water rafting and mountain hiking. I appreciate the input from professional climbers and try to error on the side of caution. Slack elimination, proper equipment and inspection will minimize your exposure to risk in my opinion.

 

[katiesmom]

I can't quote statistics, I read somewhere that 90% of falls occur getting in and out of the stand. I would think in that case a front connection would work.

Just my 2 cents.

But are there any saddle tests that have been conducted and documented?

 

[Fl Canopy Stalker]

I can't quote statistics, I read somewhere that 90% of falls occur getting in and out of the stand. I would think in that case a front connection would work.

Just my 2 cents.

But are there any saddle tests that have been conducted and documented?

Yes the majority of falls occur while transitioning onto and off of the stand. A big part of that is that guys set the stands higher than their climbing sticks, haven’t kept the lineman’s rope properly positioned and tensioned. Interestingly most falls also happen in the afternoon/evening, which goes against conventional wisdom that mornings would be more dangerous because of dew, low light conditions and typically colder temperatures…. A front connection point would be safer in that moment without question, because recovery is easier. However not all falls occur at that time. And fall arrest harnesses all come with linemen’s loops which are forward facing connection points. In my industry many FBH come with front connection (chest connection) and a rear connection so that the harness can be used while working from any position although rear attachments are often preferred because the lanyard is behind you and out of the way of your working area.

 

[Fl Canopy Stalker]

I can't quote statistics, I read somewhere that 90% of falls occur getting in and out of the stand. I would think in that case a front connection would work.

Just my 2 cents.

But are there any saddle tests that have been conducted and documented?

As far as tests and documentation, testing for hunting saddles specifically? I am unsure. But tests have been ran in mountain rescue, parachute access (ie paratrooper and rescuers) as well as in the arborist industry. Suspension trauma can lead to unconsciousness and even death in under ten minutes. This is why I don’t disagree with JRB entirely because having a way to rappel down (recover and or escape) is the single most important thing. But pretending like there are not devices that safely lower you to the ground while in a FAS/FBH is either done due to lack of knowledge or… is done with intent of pushing a separate system. I can say this with confidence, the lowering devices will lower you whether you are hurt, conscious or unconscious. Rappelling on a rope or a tree stand lifeline is only able to be done if you are conscious and physically able to do so… for all of our hybrid hunters, please keep that in mind.
It is worth noting that suspension trauma can occur in a rock climbing harness as well as a saddle. Once it was believed that all suspension trauma was caused from the leg straps pulling into the arteries but after years of studies and documentation it is widely believed now that most suspension trauma is caused from your legs being immobile and in a position too far below your chest making it too hard for the heart to return blood (because of lack of muscle contractions which help the heart pump. There have been accounts in the military of men fainting from standing still for too long. Rock climbers have been found dead in the seated position. One of the more important things to do is to keep your legs moving. In the case of using a sit style harness like a saddle, you can walk your legs up the tree to get them on plane with your heart and that would prevent suspension trauma from occurring or at the very least make it take much longer to occur.

 

[katiesmom]

As far as tests and documentation, testing for hunting saddles specifically? I am unsure. But tests have been ran in mountain rescue, parachute access (ie paratrooper and rescuers) as well as in the arborist industry. Suspension trauma can lead to unconsciousness and even death in under ten minutes. This is why I don’t disagree with JRB entirely because having a way to rappel down (recover and or escape) is the single most important thing. But pretending like there are not devices that safely lower you to the ground while in a FAS/FBH is either done due to lack of knowledge or… is done with intent of pushing a separate system. I can say this with confidence, the lowering devices will lower you whether you are hurt, conscious or unconscious. Rappelling on a rope or a tree stand lifeline is only able to be done if you are conscious and physically able to do so… for all of our hybrid hunters, please keep that in mind.
It is worth noting that suspension trauma can occur in a rock climbing harness as well as a saddle. Once it was believed that all suspension trauma was caused from the leg straps pulling into the arteries but after years of studies and documentation it is widely believed now that most suspension trauma is caused from your legs being immobile and in a position too far below your chest making it too hard for the heart to return blood (because of lack of muscle contractions which help the heart pump. There have been accounts in the military of men fainting from standing still for too long. Rock climbers have been found dead in the seated position. One of the more important things to do is to keep your legs moving. In the case of using a sit style harness like a saddle, you can walk your legs up the tree to get them on plane with your heart and that would prevent suspension trauma from occurring or at the very least make it take much longer to occur.

The military fainting I have been a witness to. Standing in a ceremonial formation in Oklahoma for an hour+ in 100 degrees heat and they lock their knees. Guaranteed to drop lol.

Thank you for this thread gents. I was looking at trying hybrid this year with my Novice Helo lock on. This gives me something to think about.

Update. I do carry a regular screw in tree step in my saddle pouch all the time.

 

[Fl Canopy Stalker]

The military fainting I have been a witness to. Standing in a ceremonial formation in Oklahoma for an hour+ in 100 degrees heat and they lock their knees. Guaranteed to drop lol.

Thank you for this thread gents. I was looking at trying hybrid this year with my Novice Helo lock on. This gives me something to think about.

I am not trying to discourage people from hybrid hunting. I got to try out that new retrograde stand from XOP and it was light. The post and seat cushion could quick and easily be transitioned to be knee cushion. The biggest draw back for me was the wires on the side especially since the platform was narrow. I could definitely see the benefits for guys who like looking away from the tree or for guys that are not particularly comfortable in a saddle for multiple hours.

I just never suffered from that problem so hybrid hunting isn’t the answer for me personally. And while I wasn’t a fan of the actual saddle portion of the XOP mondo, the harness concept as an all in one makes a lot of since for hybrid hunting. Keep the dorsal connected and high up, keep the sternum connected lower (about 3’ under your top strap or rope) with a lot of slack. This should give the room needed for the top lanyard should a fall occur but still give the ability to safely turn adjust the tether, prusik and slack, and use like a pure saddle. In a recovery after fall position, twist into the tree by using the lower tether, cinch up the prusik as high and tight as possible then walk your legs up the tree. At that point rappelling down is definitely an option if you are able. The drawback is you couldn’t use an auto lowering device while the bridge is still clipped in.

 

[Brocky]

Foot locking the rope to go back up is another option.

 

[Fl Canopy Stalker]

Foot locking the rope to go back up is another option.

Absolutely. That is such a lost art on saddle hunters…

 

[GeoFish]

If you want a good laugh start at the 3min mark.

 

[BTaylor]

If you want a good laugh start at the 3min mark.

He handled that better than I would have.

 

[Dope on a Rope]

If you want a good laugh start at the 3min mark.

Looks humongo. I have the old one that came with the xop edge platform(and possibly another if they sent one with the retrograde). Same train wreck without the clip buckles. I was just thinking about digging it up and salvaging clips and webbing from it.

 

[Black Titan]

If you want a good laugh start at the 3min mark.

Yup. Thats about the way it is with that saddle. I had one briefly before I got my CGM Cobra. If you set it down perfectly and turn your head away, look back and it's a tangled, backwards, upside down mess.

It wasn't terrible, and it got me hooked on saddle hunting at a budget price, but my cobra is miles and miles better constructed and more comfortable.

BT

 

[GeoFish]

Yup. Thats about the way it is with that saddle. I had one briefly before I got my CGM Cobra. If you set it down perfectly and turn your head away, look back and it's a tangled, backwards, upside down mess.

It wasn't terrible, and it got me hooked on saddle hunting at a budget price, but my cobra is miles and miles better constructed and more comfortable.

BT

Did you guys notice how many times he connected the cheep China buckles and they came loose. No wonder they don't have a warranty on that thing.

 

[Black Titan]

Did you guys notice how many times he connected the cheep China buckles and they came loose. No wonder they don't have a warranty on that thing.

Yeah I saw that. I kinda wondered if he wasn't engaging them correctly. I never had that issue with mine that I recall. Those buckles are heavy though.

BT