When do you go to plan b?

[philsanchez76]

I love this discussion. I am a slow learner and it's always been hard for me to recognize patterns and figure out next steps based on that.

I have finally gotten good at bumping deer. Props to @kyler1945 being the first one I've seen to simply say, "just keep walking till you bump deer." The guys I hunt with think I am an idiot for this. But I kill more deer than they do. haha. I log all my hunts and last 3 seasons, I have at least some kind of close encounter with a deer 93% of the time. But.... my kill rate was only 15%. Usually this means I am in the right area but the deer are just out of bow range. Of course once muzzleloader and gun open, this all goes away because you don't have to be this close. But I enjoy bow hunting more than anything and want to get better. And for reference I am killing lots of does for the freezer and really just hunting bucks during the rut.

Anyone else gotten good at closing this gap? the gap from having a lot of encounters to having a lot of dead deer?

I have taken to using trail cams to help me put the pieces together. If I bump a deer and really can't figure out why it was there, I will put a cam up in the general vicinity to see exactly how they've been using this area. Video mode will help even more as you can figure out which directions they travel and when. This has really helped close the gap with learning patterns. The frustrating part is by the time you learn a pattern in an area, it's likely changing already. But this info proves really helpful for next season potentially.

 

[woodsdog2]

This is a great thread I'm constantly going over each of these scenarios in my mind. I agree that you have to get aggressive in terms of searching for the best and most recent sign and generally you can pretty much determine that the stuff in the thickest areas back away from feed fields, clear cuts, other food sources that are more open are more night related so don't get all excited if that super fresh sign is 50 yards from a food source. Maybe a great evening spot but I'd back up 75 yards more from that and try to push that envelope.

As the rut develops I try to understand fresh doe sign areas bedding and different doe bedding groups. I try to find connectors of cover between those doe bedding areas and bedding groups and set up downwind of them. But I try to make sure those cover strips are not in pressured areas. If I see a fresh scrape or rubline in these doe to doe spots with minimal pressure the better as the bucks will travel between them more likely during daylight. The other thing though is fresh sign in relation to pressure. So you can scout until you bump deer but then what if you're the 5th guy that bumped them? Are they still going to be there? Fresh sign made in relation to pressure areas has to also be contemplated. By mid morning I'm making the decision of when they get up again during the pre rut to start running.... sometimes I find I don't have to go too far back in if they're scent checking during mid morning back closer to those spots I didn't want to be at first light Make that move back or stay??? It always kills me to pack up to do that. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

I hunt in mostly hilly terrain and as the pressure develops I get into the nastier terrain. Sidehills and legacy trails with legacy rubs on those trails in mountain goat type terrain can be super effective but can be problematic for me setting up in with thermals and wind direction. I've got a great legacy sidehill trail with legacy rubs that runs east~west along a major ridge. Points or spurs off that main ridge form to the northwest and southeast, or northeast and southwest. Depending on the wind and if I don't want to try to get all the way into near that bedding area for fear of boogering things up too much I look for a spot along that legacy sidehill trail leading to those spurs maybe 100 yards from the bedding points where it may kick out or bend out which forces the buck out of a scent stream. Before pressure the buck's general movement pattern may be relatively straight north ~south to feed fields back to the east~ west running ridge and bedding down over that on a ridge spur, on the north east side of the ridge spur in a southwest wind etc. If he's still heading back there in the morning after pressure starts his movement may turn more lateral overall and he's now moving more crosswind or against the wind at the extents of the cover I try to hunt to approach his bedding spots hence the side hill parallel trails along the main ridge. Where that kicks out that forces him to approach a possible setup. I look at the cover I'm hunting as the only thing I can control and view the approach that way. Understandably, the deer has the whole area but I don't, I'm either getting to those additional areas to actually hunt or relying on pressure to influence the movement into my areas. This is true of public and private or mixed public and private.

My point is super fresh sign is awesome but influencers happen and terrain features and wind also have a huge play in the game and can provide more reliable "over time "continuum movement trends rather than just the freshest sign. Sign becomes nothing during the rut too and where i'm hunting most sign makes me behind the 8 ball most of the time. Thick stuff with nasty trails getting to them that relate to overall general doe movement patterns over time I believe pay off more than just finding fresh sign and setting up. I'm no big buck expert so take what I have to say with a huge grain of salt but its been my experience. Those are some of my experiences.

 

[kyler1945]

This is a great thread I'm constantly going over each of these scenarios in my mind. I agree that you have to get aggressive in terms of searching for the best and most recent sign and generally you can pretty much determine that the stuff in the thickest areas back away from feed fields, clear cuts, other food sources that are more open are more night related so don't get all excited if that super fresh sign is 50 yards from a food source. Maybe a great evening spot but I'd back up 75 yards more from that and try to push that envelope.

As the rut develops I try to understand fresh doe sign areas bedding and different doe bedding groups. I try to find connectors of cover between those doe bedding areas and bedding groups and set up downwind of them. But I try to make sure those cover strips are not in pressured areas. If I see a fresh scrape or rubline in these doe to doe spots with minimal pressure the better as the bucks will travel between them more likely during daylight. The other thing though is fresh sign in relation to pressure. So you can scout until you bump deer but then what if you're the 5th guy that bumped them? Are they still going to be there? Fresh sign made in relation to pressure areas has to also be contemplated. By mid morning I'm making the decision of when they get up again during the pre rut to start running.... sometimes I find I don't have to go too far back in if they're scent checking during mid morning back closer to those spots I didn't want to be at first light Make that move back or stay??? It always kills me to pack up to do that. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

I hunt in mostly hilly terrain and as the pressure develops I get into the nastier terrain. Sidehills and legacy trails with legacy rubs on those trails in mountain goat type terrain can be super effective but can be problematic for me setting up in with thermals and wind direction. I've got a great legacy sidehill trail with legacy rubs that runs east~west along a major ridge. Points or spurs off that main ridge form to the northwest and southeast, or northeast and southwest. Depending on the wind and if I don't want to try to get all the way into near that bedding area for fear of boogering things up too much I look for a spot along that legacy sidehill trail leading to those spurs maybe 100 yards from the bedding points where it may kick out or bend out which forces the buck out of a scent stream. Before pressure the buck's general movement pattern may be relatively straight north ~south to feed fields back to the east~ west running ridge and bedding down over that on a ridge spur, on the north east side of the ridge spur in a southwest wind etc. If he's still heading back there in the morning after pressure starts his movement may turn more lateral overall and he's now moving more crosswind or against the wind at the extents of the cover I try to hunt to approach his bedding spots hence the side hill parallel trails along the main ridge. Where that kicks out that forces him to approach a possible setup. I look at the cover I'm hunting as the only thing I can control and view the approach that way. Understandably, the deer has the whole area but I don't, I'm either getting to those additional areas to actually hunt or relying on pressure to influence the movement into my areas. This is true of public and private or mixed public and private.

My point is super fresh sign is awesome but influencers happen and terrain features and wind also have a huge play in the game and can provide more reliable "over time "continuum movement trends rather than just the freshest sign. Sign becomes nothing during the rut too and where i'm hunting most sign makes me behind the 8 ball most of the time. Thick stuff with nasty trails getting to them that relate to overall general doe movement patterns over time I believe pay off more than just finding fresh sign and setting up. I'm no big buck expert so take what I have to say with a huge grain of salt but its been my experience. Those are some of my experiences.

I agree with a lot of what you say. One important detail - the sign you’re referring to here as fresh and not mattering during the rut, may not be “fresh” to me. Fresh sign is sign I’m confident deer are making that day, in legal shooting hours. This is point I’m trying to get across.

folks think they’re hunting fresh sign because itwas Laid down since the last rain a week ago, or it’s a trail that has clearly been traveled by many animals recently.

fresh is finding deer making it, or knowing without any doubt it was made in legal shooting hours, that day. The rest is just sign.

 

[131north]

Want you guys to all know that if nothing else comes of this thread, I honest to God took my glove off and felt some deer s#it the other night. And you were right, it was about cold as the rest of the sign I saw. Guess where I saw deer - right off the freshest, sloppiest trail I saw. Progress!

 

[TreeCreep]

Slow for me last few “ ambush “ set ups and times getting in tree at first light.
Last weekend just still hunted through quietly with the old plan B saddle.

 

[TreeCreep]

This is a great thread I'm constantly going over each of these scenarios in my mind. I agree that you have to get aggressive in terms of searching for the best and most recent sign and generally you can pretty much determine that the stuff in the thickest areas back away from feed fields, clear cuts, other food sources that are more open are more night related so don't get all excited if that super fresh sign is 50 yards from a food source. Maybe a great evening spot but I'd back up 75 yards more from that and try to push that envelope.

As the rut develops I try to understand fresh doe sign areas bedding and different doe bedding groups. I try to find connectors of cover between those doe bedding areas and bedding groups and set up downwind of them. But I try to make sure those cover strips are not in pressured areas. If I see a fresh scrape or rubline in these doe to doe spots with minimal pressure the better as the bucks will travel between them more likely during daylight. The other thing though is fresh sign in relation to pressure. So you can scout until you bump deer but then what if you're the 5th guy that bumped them? Are they still going to be there? Fresh sign made in relation to pressure areas has to also be contemplated. By mid morning I'm making the decision of when they get up again during the pre rut to start running.... sometimes I find I don't have to go too far back in if they're scent checking during mid morning back closer to those spots I didn't want to be at first light Make that move back or stay??? It always kills me to pack up to do that. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

I hunt in mostly hilly terrain and as the pressure develops I get into the nastier terrain. Sidehills and legacy trails with legacy rubs on those trails in mountain goat type terrain can be super effective but can be problematic for me setting up in with thermals and wind direction. I've got a great legacy sidehill trail with legacy rubs that runs east~west along a major ridge. Points or spurs off that main ridge form to the northwest and southeast, or northeast and southwest. Depending on the wind and if I don't want to try to get all the way into near that bedding area for fear of boogering things up too much I look for a spot along that legacy sidehill trail leading to those spurs maybe 100 yards from the bedding points where it may kick out or bend out which forces the buck out of a scent stream. Before pressure the buck's general movement pattern may be relatively straight north ~south to feed fields back to the east~ west running ridge and bedding down over that on a ridge spur, on the north east side of the ridge spur in a southwest wind etc. If he's still heading back there in the morning after pressure starts his movement may turn more lateral overall and he's now moving more crosswind or against the wind at the extents of the cover I try to hunt to approach his bedding spots hence the side hill parallel trails along the main ridge. Where that kicks out that forces him to approach a possible setup. I look at the cover I'm hunting as the only thing I can control and view the approach that way. Understandably, the deer has the whole area but I don't, I'm either getting to those additional areas to actually hunt or relying on pressure to influence the movement into my areas. This is true of public and private or mixed public and private.

My point is super fresh sign is awesome but influencers happen and terrain features and wind also have a huge play in the game and can provide more reliable "over time "continuum movement trends rather than just the freshest sign. Sign becomes nothing during the rut too and where i'm hunting most sign makes me behind the 8 ball most of the time. Thick stuff with nasty trails getting to them that relate to overall general doe movement patterns over time I believe pay off more than just finding fresh sign and setting up. I'm no big buck expert so take what I have to say with a huge grain of salt but its been my experience. Those are some of my experiences.

My point is super fresh sign is awesome but influencers happen and terrain features and wind also have a huge play in the game and can provide more reliable "over time "continuum movement trends rather than just the freshest sign. Sign becomes nothing during the rut too and where i'm hunting most sign makes me behind the 8 ball most of the time. Thick stuff with nasty trails getting to them that relate to overall general doe movement patterns over time I believe pay off more than just finding fresh sign and setting up. I'm no big buck expert so take what I have to say with a huge grain of salt but its been my experience. Those are some of my experiences.

Well stated post and above sums up the debate I’ve had with experienced hunters offering; not to get too aggressive / go easy with “fancy internet crap”
I’m far from an expert.

thanks for the discussion as this has been my mental debate for the last month.

 

[Empostarr]

boots on the ground and the freshest sign possible has been my mantra this season, but its hard to get out of old habits. I just moved this summer and now live 10 minutes away from state hunting land, so I have a lot of new land to get used to. I have properties and other state lands that have well worn and frequently used trails that produce year after year, my uncle just took a huge 11 point buck from one of those spots, but they're all farther away and I'm excited to check out new areas I now live by.

I've been out 3 times so far for evening hunts, and only climbed a tree once. The first time I scouted and found recent sign, but not fresh sign. I set up hoping to get lucky and saw nothing.

The second time I scouted a different area and found tons of sign...but it was all older. I found a huge rub, big enough that for a moment I considered if it was possibly a hunter playing a joke, until I found all of the scrapes in the area too. Still, it was recent, so I picked a spot to set up. Then I got to thinking, "why am I settling for recent when I should be looking for the freshest or actually bumping deer?". I packed back up and kept moving and I eventually found a recent scrap that had fresh droppings around it that were still "wet". Then I heard a faint grunt, started getting excited, only for it to actually be another hunter. I backed out the way I came and set up on the ground before dark and saw nothing again.

The third time out was last Saturday evening. I visited the area of the first time out, but the east side of the property. There are corn fields to the east and to the north. There's a body of water to the south (blue circle) and what looks like some thicker cover. I theorized that they may be bedding there and coming out to the fields to eat. I cut through the pine trees towards the north of the property and ended up finding some well worn trails and old rubs. Once I got about 40 yards or so from the field edge, I came across a trail that ran north/south (yellow line) and there was fresh droppings. Not recent, but fresh. Since I figured they were from that morning and heading south to the bedding, I went south too. I ended up finding two fresh rubs along the trail, one going north and the other going south, both had wood that was still wet. I set up off to the side of the trail (green), planning on them coming up that trail moving north. Two Does and at least a 4 point buck ended up walking up the tree line on the field side, and I couldn't get a shot thru the trees. Something eventually spooked them farther north and they came hauling ass back they way they came. About 20 minutes later, a doe came right up that trail like I thought and I could have taken a shot but hoped to get a better look at the buck. He never showed, but another 2 doe and a fawn came in along that trail and even right up to my tree. They looked at me but never spooked, but by then it was too dark to take a shot.

TLR - I set up on recent or older sign and saw nothing. I set up on fresh sign and not only saw deer, but had the opportunity to take one. I'm coming to terms with it being ok if I don't end up in a tree by the end of the hunt, since it doesn't make sense to set up where the deer used to be.

 

[woodsdog2]

Want you guys to all know that if nothing else comes of this thread, I honest to God took my glove off and felt some deer s#it the other night. And you were right, it was about cold as the rest of the sign I saw. Guess where I saw deer - right off the freshest, sloppiest trail I saw. Progress!

Yeah but you didn't taste it yet did ya? That's when you can really determine how old it is.

 

[will4554]

When you hang a set are you guessing? Or do you genuinely feel that you are killing something? This is for anyone. I still fall into the trap of wanting to hunt known areas. But when I only hang feeling like I will kill is when I have good encounters. The more I do that the more it happens.

 

[Empostarr]

Wanting to hunt known areas is definitely a trap. So is feeling like I have to be in a tree and either picking a spot cause it "feels" like a deerish spot (even though the only sign is a faint trail or something) or climbing a tree because there's old sign like a well worn path or a recent rub with no new sign.

That 3rd sit I wrote the story about, I felt confident I was going to see deer. It felt great that all of my detective work and my reasoning resulted in seeing deer and having a chance if I wanted to take the shot. There was a heavily used trail with signs of recent foot traffic. There were really fresh droppings. There were two really fresh rubs. All signs that deer were there that day. Since I knew there were corn fields to the north and to the east, looking at the map I expected they were bedding somewhere in the thicker stuff near the body of water. Three things they needed, food, water, a place to hide...all right by each other. So it was an educated guess based on all those details.

When I found that huge rub and all those scrapes, the wood was already showing signs of drying, so I knew it wasn't fresh. The trails I was following, they all had leaves on them showing no signs of disturbance. The scrapes looked fresh, but there was no fresh sign leading to them. So it didn't feel like any deer had been there recently, so I didn't want to set up there. That's why I kept moving, then found a scrape with prints and fresh crap near it...and found a hunter there too. If that hunter wouldn't have been there, I would have kept going looking for more consistent fresh sign before I would have set up.

The hardest thing has been going out and not ending up in a tree the entire time. I'm trying to make peace with the fact that I may spend the entire time scouting because I didn't find sign that was fresh enough. At least that's how I'm operating this year

 

[will4554]

The hardest thing has been going out and not ending up in a tree the entire time. I'm trying to make peace with the fact that I may spend the entire time scouting because I didn't find sign that was fresh enough. At least that's how I'm operating this year

The more you do it, the more natural it becomes. Even when I’m in a familiar spot I rarely end up in the same tree. But there are a lot of hunts I don’t find what I want and just end up taking a long walk.

 

[tailgunner]

I wore my saddle for a whole elk season without climbing a tree.do that alot.some years climb once or twice.keeps my but dry when sitting on mossy stumps all season though.

 

[Nutterbuster]

But there are a lot of hunts I don’t find what I want and just end up taking a long walk.

Same.

I will say though, it depends on how much acreage you have access to. Me, I have unlimited acreage. I'm young and hardy with no serious responsibilities at home and a very laid-back wife. There are 1.5 million acres of public hunting ground in Alabama, and none of it is further than I'm willing to drive if push comes to shove. I have over 100k acres within 30 minutes of my house. I have a handful of good areas that I stay out of until the time is right (cold front during rut) but the rest...I literally do not care. I'll walk every inch, jump every deer, and take a giant steamer of a dump in every scrape I find that I don't think was made during daylight hours. I very much enjoy that kind of hunting. I don't sit a lot, but I see deer on most of my sits.

On the other hand, my dad primarily hunts a `120 acre lease. I hunt it a couple of times a year with him, mainly to be social. There's no point bumping deer there anymore (key word...I tromped it up PLENTY the first few years). We pretty much know what deer are doing after 15 or so years of being there and running cameras year round. We also see deer on most of our sits.

I don't particularly enjoy the 2nd scenario. And I think for most of us, leveraging access to millions of acres for almost free is more fruitful than buying/leasing a small amount and praying it holds deer year after year, or spending the time/money to do serious habitat improvements and hope that the neighbors don't shoot your deer.

 

[CajunSlinger]

Same.

I will say though, it depends on how much acreage you have access to. Me, I have unlimited acreage. I'm young and hardy with no serious responsibilities at home and a very laid-back wife. There are 1.5 million acres of public hunting ground in Alabama, and none of it is further than I'm willing to drive if push comes to shove. I have over 100k acres within 30 minutes of my house. I have a handful of good areas that I stay out of until the time is right (cold front during rut) but the rest...I literally do not care. I'll walk every inch, jump every deer, and take a giant steamer of a dump in every scrape I find that I don't think was made during daylight hours. I very much enjoy that kind of hunting. I don't sit a lot, but I see deer on most of my sits.

On the other hand, my dad primarily hunts a `120 acre lease. I hunt it a couple of times a year with him, mainly to be social. There's no point bumping deer there anymore (key word...I tromped it up PLENTY the first few years). We pretty much know what deer are doing after 15 or so years of being there and running cameras year round. We also see deer on most of our sits.

I don't particularly enjoy the 2nd scenario. And I think for most of us, leveraging access to millions of acres for almost free is more fruitful than buying/leasing a small amount and praying it holds deer year after year, or spending the time/money to do serious habitat improvements and hope that the neighbors don't shoot your deer.

Similar setup in N. Louisiana with thousands and thousands of public land to roam around in. Just curious regarding mornings…do you scout around with headlight before 1st light or wait until grey light to start working your way through the woods?

 

[Nutterbuster]

Similar setup in N. Louisiana with thousands and thousands of public land to roam around in. Just curious regarding mornings…do you scout around with headlight before 1st light or wait until grey light to start working your way through the woods?

I've done both. Generally I'll pick a spot that I think has potential that requires a long walk in the woods to get to. I'll walk until I either get to that spot or see deer/sign and set up to hunt. Then I'll take a different route back to the truck and either see nothing and leave for another evening spot or find deer/sign and set up for the evening.

 

[philsanchez76]

Same.

I will say though, it depends on how much acreage you have access to. Me, I have unlimited acreage. I'm young and hardy with no serious responsibilities at home and a very laid-back wife. There are 1.5 million acres of public hunting ground in Alabama, and none of it is further than I'm willing to drive if push comes to shove. I have over 100k acres within 30 minutes of my house. I have a handful of good areas that I stay out of until the time is right (cold front during rut) but the rest...I literally do not care. I'll walk every inch, jump every deer, and take a giant steamer of a dump in every scrape I find that I don't think was made during daylight hours. I very much enjoy that kind of hunting. I don't sit a lot, but I see deer on most of my sits.

On the other hand, my dad primarily hunts a `120 acre lease. I hunt it a couple of times a year with him, mainly to be social. There's no point bumping deer there anymore (key word...I tromped it up PLENTY the first few years). We pretty much know what deer are doing after 15 or so years of being there and running cameras year round. We also see deer on most of our sits.

I don't particularly enjoy the 2nd scenario. And I think for most of us, leveraging access to millions of acres for almost free is more fruitful than buying/leasing a small amount and praying it holds deer year after year, or spending the time/money to do serious habitat improvements and hope that the neighbors don't shoot your deer.

Question is: how many bucks you shot over your scrape dumps? Might be onto a brand new strategy here.

 

[kyler1945]

Question is: how many bucks you shot over your scrape dumps? Might be onto a brand new strategy here.

Scrumps

 

[woodsdog2]

Question is: how many bucks you shot over your scrape dumps? Might be onto a brand new strategy here.

I urinate in them all the time. This is very coarse but you young bucks with menstruating wives and girlfriends, take them along, do your thing then urinate in that scrape..... both of you now... weird I know, but those pheromones may be attractive. Sorry to any whom may be offended. Nature is nature though. Also adds to some interesting pillow talk if you have a game trail camera set up when you're 'freshening that scrape' with her. Now you're gonna be thinking of this every stinking time you come upon a scrape (eh-hem, I mean walk up on). Your wives can thank saddlehunter.com for your friskiness.

 

[Nutterbuster]

I urinate in them all the time. This is very coarse but you young bucks with menstruating wives and girlfriends, take them along, do your thing then urinate in that scrape..... both of you now... weird I know, but those pheromones may be attractive. Sorry to any whom may be offended. Nature is nature though. Also adds to some interesting pillow talk if you have a game trail camera set up when you're 'freshening that scrape' with her. Now you're gonna be thinking of this every stinking time you come upon a scrape (eh-hem, I mean walk up on). Your wives can thank saddlehunter.com for your friskiness.

Sounds horrible..

Getting away from the constant advances of women is kinda the whole reason I hunt.

 

[kyler1945]

Sounds horrible..

Getting away from the constant advances of women is kinda the whole reason I hunt.

Waffle House is a real hot spot for the fairer sex down there in alabammer… I could see how you would tire of all the attention you get. I’ve witnessed the show. It’s a real treat.