Who has snorted the Fairy Dust?

[Allegheny Tom]

Make no mistake, we are (or should be) aiming for heavy bone more than a lot of hunters realize. I'm not taking about aiming for heavy bone on the entrance side, I'm talking about heavy bone on the EXIT side.
The aiming point on almost any quartering away puts the exit very close to heavy bone.

I was already very familiar with Ashby long before there was the internet or podcasts.
When I finally got to hear Ashby on a podcast, one thing he said really stuck with me. I paraphrase, but the importance of an exit wound is critical to the actual recovery of the animal. I didn't say an exit hole is critical for lethality, I said critical for RECOVERY of the animal.
And something else that I heard Ashby say very recently referred to the often heard comment that heavy arrows are for large or dangerous game and aren't needed for whitetails. He compared a cape buffalo rib to heavy bone on a whitetail and commented that some whitetail bones are actually tougher to penetrate than a 1 inch thick buffalo rib.

Almost to a man, we regularly hear bowhunters say they'll only shoot broadside or quartering away angles and I completely agree with that. But how many of the light arrow guys realize they are actually aiming for an exit location that may prevent their light arrow from actually producing an exit hole? And they wonder why the bloodtrail sucked.

 

[waltholmes5]

Make no mistake, we are (or should be) aiming for heavy bone more than a lot of hunters realize. I'm not taking about aiming for heavy bone on the entrance side, I'm talking about heavy bone on the EXIT side.
The aiming point on almost any quartering away puts the exit very close to heavy bone.

I was already very familiar with Ashby long before there was the internet or podcasts.
When I finally got to hear Ashby on a podcast, one thing he said really stuck with me. I paraphrase, but the importance of an exit wound is critical to the actual recovery of the animal. I didn't say an exit hole is critical for lethality, I said critical for RECOVERY of the animal.
And something else that I heard Ashby say very recently referred to the often heard comment that heavy arrows are for large or dangerous game and aren't needed for whitetails. He compared a cape buffalo rib to heavy bone on a whitetail and commented that some whitetail bones are actually tougher to penetrate than a 1 inch thick buffalo rib.

Almost to a man, we regularly hear bowhunters say they'll only shoot broadside or quartering away angles and I completely agree with that. But how many of the light arrow guys realize they are actually aiming for an exit location that may prevent their light arrow from actually producing an exit hole? And they wonder why the bloodtrail sucked.

From 8:30

 

[Weldabeast]

Podcost host: So what arrow do you like to hunt whitetail with?
Ashby: My 1200gr rhino arrow.....''Right throu the shoulder and drop 'em on the ground right there.... That's my favorite shot.''

 

[Jimdude]

• You miss 100% of the opportunities you don't take.
I can’t argue with that!
I think I’m also not confident because I’m shooting 52lbs so lacking in potential KE. But I know Ashby is doing it with a 45lb stick bow. I’m not going to put that kind of confidence in my 530 grains this winter but I’ll take your word for it and pull out my 125 grain inserts for next season. Side note, my favorite 2 shots were when I was goofing around with a “light arrow” buddy of mine. He said heavy can’t be accurate. I took a bow tuned for 530 and and put an 850gr arrow out to 40 yards. Used my 60 yard pin and put 2 arrows in a 3” bullseye. The bow kicked like a 12 gauge but it sure put a smile on my face.

 

[Weldabeast]

 

[waltholmes5]

• You miss 100% of the opportunities you don't take.
I can’t argue with that!
I think I’m also not confident because I’m shooting 52lbs so lacking in potential KE. But I know Ashby is doing it with a 45lb stick bow. I’m not going to put that kind of confidence in my 530 grains this winter but I’ll take your word for it and pull out my 125 grain inserts for next season. Side note, my favorite 2 shots were when I was goofing around with a “light arrow” buddy of mine. He said heavy can’t be accurate. I took a bow tuned for 530 and and put an 850gr arrow out to 40 yards. Used my 60 yard pin and put 2 arrows in a 3” bullseye. The bow kicked like a 12 gauge but it sure put a smile on my face.

I think with your lighter draw there's even more reason to go heavy. Don't look at KE, just stay inside 25 yards and go for great penetration.

 

[SaddleUpPartner!]

The thing that sold me on going heavy was when Troy said “the animal has a vote” because they can jump the string. So best case scenario I slip it into the vital V and it dies within 20 yards, worst case scenario is I hit a bone and my arrow smashes through it and I double lung it anyways. I bought the test kit recently and was messing around with it in my pole barn(it’s pretty fun to tinker by the way) and I shot the 250 spine with a 200 grain head through my bag target, through my metal siding on my barn and it stuck into one of my garden boxes behind my barn. I uttered out a “HOLY S***!”, so far I’ve been impressed lol.

 

[Fl Canopy Stalker]

This seems reasonable for whitetails. I still think time to target is an important factor.

View attachment 65918

I guess my question is, for those who are now over the Ashby 650, why?

I’m barely over the 650 but it’s because I have a 32” draw. I had to get 250 spine (I’m considering 150 spine because the 250 is still bare shafting a tad weak side) so my arrows alone are 10.6 grain times 32 plus the weight of the knock and fletchings. So my arrows already weigh a little over 350 grains. I shoot 200 grain grizzly stik samurai with a 100 grain insert/outsert. With my old Bear species the arrows slowed the bow to 229 FPS, but on my Hoyt RX5 they are zinging around 267 FPS. This has been my setup for the past 3 season and I haven’t shot anything the past two seasons. My first season using it though I dropped 2 deer and 7 hog. The furthest I blood trailed an animal in 2020 was 40 yards. This set up knocked hogs down and pinned them to the ground

 

[1simplemann]

This is why people go for 650, single bevel, tanto tip, high FOC, as many of the 12 factors as they can and not lighter. I think the only factor you don't see too much of is tapered shafts, only ones I'm finding super easily are Grizzlystik.

Your correct. The more your put in your favor, the better. While I personally don't shoot GS because of the price, they do perform. A friend of my SnL's does shoot them and their BH. He says they shoot well and he has no issues with them. They went to the Yukon and he passed thru a bull moose @ 30yds. The bull died within sight. They never found the arrow. If I was hunting really BIG game and money wasn't an issue, I don't know why you wouldn't shoot them. Deer? You probably don't need them. I do hunt elk so I might get a doz. just to play around.

 

[waltholmes5]

I’m barely over the 650 but it’s because I have a 32” draw. I had to get 250 spine (I’m considering 150 spine because the 250 is still bare shafting a tad weak side) so my arrows alone are 10.6 grain times 32 plus the weight of the knock and fletchings. So my arrows already weigh a little over 350 grains. I shoot 200 grain grizzly stik samurai with a 100 grain insert/outsert. With my old Bear species the arrows slowed the bow to 229 FPS, but on my Hoyt RX5 they are zinging around 267 FPS. This has been my setup for the past 3 season and I haven’t shot anything the past two seasons. My first season using it though I dropped 2 deer and 7 hog. The furthest I blood trailed an animal in 2020 was 40 yards. This set up knocked hogs down and pinned them to the ground

Mind if I get like an inch or two of your wingspan to increase my draw length? Any issues with the Samurai?

 

[Fl Canopy Stalker]

Mind if I get like an inch or two of your wingspan to increase my draw length? Any issues with the Samurai?

The samurai are amazing. They maintain sharpness pretty well, and so far I’ve only managed to break the tip on one of them.
PS finding a good selection of bows is not easy once you get above 31” of draw length… if you’re in the 28 to 30 range you should definitely stick there lol way more options

 

[1simplemann]

• You miss 100% of the opportunities you don't take.
I can’t argue with that!
I think I’m also not confident because I’m shooting 52lbs so lacking in potential KE. But I know Ashby is doing it with a 45lb stick bow. I’m not going to put that kind of confidence in my 530 grains this winter but I’ll take your word for it and pull out my 125 grain inserts for next season. Side note, my favorite 2 shots were when I was goofing around with a “light arrow” buddy of mine. He said heavy can’t be accurate. I took a bow tuned for 530 and and put an 850gr arrow out to 40 yards. Used my 60 yard pin and put 2 arrows in a 3” bullseye. The bow kicked like a 12 gauge but it sure put a smile on my face.

So in your case, with your set up, I would not attempt the shot angles that I am. Stick w/ the traditional preferred shots. However I would definitely aim closer to the V. When I started out bowhunting 43 years ago, it was preached to me over and over to only take broadside or preferably quartering away shots. Also I was told to stay away from that shoulder and aim back. NEVER frontal or quartering 2. Quartering away always worked. Broadside shots usually worked but I have had a few shoulder hits so that didn't work out too good. Several times over the years I have also had gut shots because I was aiming too far back and the animal took a step. Some guys say they find their gut shot deer but I've never had much luck nor do I know anyone that consistently finds them. I've given them plenty of time and still don't find them consistently. Fast forward to my current era of shooting an Ashby style arrow. (10 years-ish) Now I aim tight to the shoulder because I'm not afraid if it. Critters are dying within sight. Plain and simple. Knock on wood, I haven't gut shot a deer in years. They come in and I shoot them 1st chance they give me. You miss 100% of the opportunities you don't take. I've had opportunities at bucks over the years that HAUNT me still to this day. I've had ONE chance in 43 years of bowhunting at a legitimate 160" buck. I had him at 13 yds for what seemed like a lifetime making a scrape. Full frontal. I waited for that good shot angle. It never came. He made a full 180 degree swap and walked away. Never to be seen again. Now I would drill him in the chest. Another time I had a 145" 10 pt in full velvet at 19yds quartering 2. The 9 does walked by me broadside to my right. I'm a lefty so that was ideal. I assumed that he would do the same thing. He didn't. He turned and walked directly underneath me to my left where I didn't not have a shooting lane. I missed trying to shoot straight down thru a branch. He trotted away out of my life forever. He died week later from EHD. Again this was the largest velvet buck I've ever had an opportunity at. Now I would shoot him when he was standing there at 19 yards. Those are only some of the examples of bucks in bow range that got away in my bowhunting career. I can give others. The widest buck I've ever shot at, I shoulder hit him at 30 yds. That didn't work out too good. I was so ticked at myself. With my current setup, I firmly believe he would've taken a ride in my truck that night. It sorta worked out though because a week later I shot my largest buck to date. It still doesn't make up for the fact that I screwed up and wounded a buck.

 

[Cajunyankee]

So in your case, with your set up, I would not attempt the shot angles that I am. Stick w/ the traditional preferred shots. However I would definitely aim closer to the V. When I started out bowhunting 43 years ago, it was preached to me over and over to only take broadside or preferably quartering away shots. Also I told to stay away from that shoulder and aim back. NEVER frontal or quartering 2. Quartering away always worked. Broadside shots usually worked but I have had a few shoulder hits so that didn't work out too good. Several times over the years I have also had gut shots because I was aiming too far back and the animal took a step. Some guys say they find their gut shot deer but I've never had much luck nor do I know anyone that consistently finds them. I've given them plenty of time and still don't find them consistently. Fast forward to my era shooting an Ashby style arrow. Now I aim tight to the shoulder because I'm not afraid if it. Critters are dying within sight. Plain and simple. Knock on wood, I haven't gut shot a deer in years. They come in and I shoot them 1st chance they give me. You miss 100% of the opportunities you don't take. I've had opportunities at bucks over the years that HAUNT me still to this day. I've had ONE chance in 43 years of bowhunting at a legitimate 160" buck. I had him at 13 yds for what seemed like a lifetime making a scrape. Full frontal. I waited for that good shot angle. It never came. He made a full 180 degree swap and walked away. Never to be seen again. Now I would drill him in the chest. Another time I had a 145" 10 pt in full velvet at 19yds quartering 2. The 9 does walked by me broadside to my right. I'm a lefty that was ideal. I assumed that he would do the same thing. He didn't. He walked directly underneath me to my left where I didn't not have a shooting lane. I missed trying to shoot straight down thru a branch. He trotted away out of my life forever. He died week later from EHD. Again this was the largest velvet buck I've ever had an opportunity at. Now I would shoot him when he was standing there at 19 yards. Those only some of the examples. I can give others. The widest buck I've ever shot at, I shoulder hit him at 30 yds. That didn't work out too good. I was so ticked at myself. Now I firmly believe he would've taken a ride in my truck that night. It sorta worked out though because a week later I shot my largest buck to date. It still doesn't make up for the fact that I screwed up and wounded a buck.

What was your previous setup and what is your current setup? I increased 125 TAW and switched from mechanical to fixed blade broadheads and feel the same way.

 

[Jimdude]

Thanks for sharing @1simplemann
So with 650+ you can take any shot??? I know a scapula with that weight is toast but what about frontal shots? The heavy part of the sternum is no problem? Is there really nothing that’s off limits. I just can’t wrap my head around that. Even the old RF doesn’t advocate aiming for the heavy stuff.

 

[1simplemann]

What was your previous setup and what is your current setup? I increased 125 TAW and switched from mechanical to fixed blade broadheads and feel the same way.

Don't get me started on Mechanicals. I've had some bad experiences. I went down the speed & mechanical BH rabbit hole there for a few years. Never lost so many deer in my life. I think that set up was a 71 lb Bowtech. 29" 365-375 grain-ish Goldtip Pro Hunter w/ a 125 grain 1 1/2" 3 blade Vortex Over the top style mechanical. Anyway after losing yet another deer, I took a hard look at my setup in the offseason./ I Did the research, Followed the advice and haven't looked back since. My current set up is a 71lb Bowtech Reign. 29", 600+ grain Goldtip Kinetic 200's w/ 75 grain insert and 200 gr Strickland Helix. 1 3/16" wide. Single bevel. 4 fletch feathers

 

[1simplemann]

Thanks for sharing @1simplemann
So with 650+ you can take any shot??? I know a scapula with that weight is toast but what about frontal shots? The heavy part of the sternum is no problem? Is there really nothing that’s off limits. I just can’t wrap my head around that. Even the old RF doesn’t advocate aiming for the heavy stuff.

No. You have to have some energy behind it. I'm not sure of my Momentum but I'm sure it's at least .7 or more. My old set up was .4-.5 ish. 1st you have to build an arrow that incorporates as many of the 12 Ashby principles as you can. ( I have most but not all). Then you need to tune the Crap out out of that arrow. You also need a a bow w/ some decent speed, heavy draw weight, and a decent draw length AND the animal has to be close. Energy loss, down range rarely gets talked about. IMO a 52lb bow and 27"draw length and 650 grain arrow doesn't cut it but it's a start. If you do happen to hit that shoulder then You at least have a chance to get through it. I doubt you would get thru both shoulders. Anyway if you have the RIGHT set up then yes nothing is off limits. If not, then don't try it.

Since the RF is now affiliated w/ the Ashby Foundation I don't think he would ever say publicly to Aim for the shoulder. He would get roasted on social media, AT, etc.. However I know for a fact he's not scared to shoot a pig quartering to him. He's done it many times. He told me so himself. He's a good dude that genuinely wants to help people. Many people do not care for his style but personally I love that he's straight forward in his opinions. Most people these days are not. He also told me that he once talked to a Grizzly Stik pro staffer that shoots elk full frontal and the arrow comes out their butt. They don't publicly advocate that shot but they are not hesitant to take that shot if that's the only shot they have. It's lethal! Seen myself 1st hand. Only for close range. 20 and under.

 

[1simplemann]

Impressive. I would love to see the same test taken with mechanicals and/or a multi blade fixed BH. I'm genuinely curious as to what the results would be.

 

[Weldabeast]

Is a heavy draw weight really needed? Since getting crazy with foc I've had all pass thru including butt to neck full length and my bow is around 50pd and under 180fps

 

[Jimdude]

No. You have to have some energy behind it. I'm not sure of my Momentum but I'm sure it's at least .7 or more. My old set up was .4-.5 ish. 1st you have to build an arrow that incorporates as many of the 12 Ashby principles as you can. ( I have most but not all). Then you need to tune the Crap out out of that arrow. You also need a a bow w/ some decent speed, heavy draw weight, and a decent draw length AND the animal has to be close. Energy loss, down range rarely gets talked about. IMO a 52lb bow and 27"draw length and 650 grain arrow doesn't cut it but it's a start. If you do happen to hit that shoulder then You at least have a chance to get through it. I doubt you would get thru both shoulders. Anyway if you have the RIGHT set up then yes nothing is off limits. If not, then don't try it.

Since the RF is now affiliated w/ the Ashby Foundation I don't think he would ever say publicly to Aim for the shoulder. He would get roasted on social media, AT, etc.. However I know for a fact he's not scared to shoot a pig quartering to him. He's done it many times. He told me so himself. He's a good dude that genuinely wants to help people. Many people do not care for his style but personally I love that he's straight forward in his opinions. Most people these days are not. He also told me that he once talked to a Grizzly Stik pro staffer that shoots elk full frontal and the arrow comes out their butt. They don't publicly advocate that shot but they are not hesitant to take that shot if that's the only shot they have. It's lethal! Seen myself 1st hand. Only for close range. 20 and under.

I’ve been watching RF for 3 years. I went down the rabbit hole and got most of the 12 factors. 250 spine Sirius Apollo’s (.204) with 125 grain insert and sleeve 200 grain iron will and 4 fletch 2”feathers 680 TAW if I remember correctly. Tuned it for weeks. I have 2 speed bows, elite enkore and APA mamba 33 MT. I haven’t even looked at the Enkore since I bought the APA. I LOVE that bow. Both claim over 340 IBO. MAMBA supposedly 350fps.
I couldn’t deal with the trajectory so I never went into the woods with that set up but maybe I should try it next year. That’s the arrow I screwed the 300 grain field points on and they flew like lawn darts.
I did ditch the feathers though because of them getting wet and also breaking off while pulling up/down my bow. I’m playing with zingers now and like them so far. Like @Weldabeast said, shouldn’t 50lbs be enough? Ashby does it with 40.

 

[Weldabeast]

I think if u build the right arrow and as long as u have "perfect" arrow flight the bow is kinda irrelevant as far as how fast or slow it is IMO....I'm not sure what that threshold is for the "right" arrow personally but I'll take the word of the guy who studied on it for years and years.